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Author | Topic: Fusion Power on the way - at last ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Jon writes:
It seems to me that something that works somewhere is better than something that works nowhere.
Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere.
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Jon Inactive Member |
It seems to me that something that works somewhere is better than something that works nowhere. Coal power works everywhere. So I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.Love your enemies!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
With fusion generation you will still be stuck with these:
The local coal plant just built two towers like this, and property values in sight of the towers dropped.
Good for them. But they are only at 17%. ... And growing. Germany is doing even better, and they have NO plans for nuclear generation.
... And it seems they are an unusually good location for wind generation. The same cannot be said for every region on the planet. Same can be said for coal\gas but that didn't hold them back. Transmission lines are an existing facet that can be adapted to form a web between production and consumption.
As I have pointed out, the fact that the world has enough wind and sun to power the planet doesn't mean that the whole world does. As they say, location, location, location. There are plenty of places where these alternatives simply don't work. Show me a place on the earth that does not get any sun or wind. One balances the other. Imagine one of these:
with PV panels on the blades ... The technology is booming in these fields, it is available NOW. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Jon writes:
Do I have to explain your own posts to you? So I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 where NoNukes said, "It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms." You seemed quite clearly to be referring to solar farms and wind farms, which do not work everywhere. And you have been touting fusion power, which doesn't work anywhere. Clear yet? ("And you want to be my latex salesman?")
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 ... And here's one where solar pv does work: Update Your Browser | Facebook
quote: Our town is investigating doing this on all town buildings. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
RAZD writes:
We have several apartment buildings in town with solar panels just like that.
Our town is investigating doing this on all town buildings.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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It's cumbersome and really only practical on the ground. Really? Because I recall supervising the operations of a nuclear reactor with its accompanying a steam plant a few hundred feet under the ocean out in the North Atlantic in a fairly compact space. Beyond that though, given that we use steam plants in lots of places on the ground, your objection is pretty meaningless.
The Chicken seems to think we're aiming for energy independence, and I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic. If energy independence is what we want, then we should really be looking at upping our extraction of U.S. coal reserves (we have the largest in the world) and finding new ways of powering things with coal or its refined products. Wrong Jon. Having a goal does not necessarily mean dropping all other priorities. And no amount of refining will change the fact that burning coal means burning carbon, and that's not good. Nobody here is against using fusion power. The main difference between most of the other posters and you is that you are smitten with the promise of fusion without taking into account the reality.
Natural gas is also a fossil fuel Of course it is. But since it's cheap and relatively plentiful it helps set the costs that we are willing to tolerate when we consider alternatives. Natural gas is one of the reasons why the price of gasoline has been dropping recently. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Even if the calculations are just modern, think of the less developed countries that have lower safety standards for things like steam generators (which blow up if not properly built, used, and maintained). You could not possibly have thought your argument through. Are you suggesting that you'd select option (d) from the question below: Jon is contemplating giving a power plant to a country that is not technologically able to maintain a steam plant. Jon would use the following scheme: a) Solar Powerb) Wind power c) Hydro-power d) Fusion reactor. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
Really? Because I recall supervising the operations of a nuclear reactor with its accompanying a steam plant a few hundred feet under the ocean out in the North Atlantic in a fairly compact space. Beyond that though, given that we use steam plants in lots of places on the ground, your objection is pretty meaningless. Good for you. But I was specifically referring to the impracticability of steam power in space.
The main difference between most of the other posters and you is that you are smitten with the promise of fusion without taking into account the reality. The reality is very clear to me: we will continue to use coal until either all the coal is gone or we develop economically-viable fusion.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
Yes. But can I put those on my car?
Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
Do I have to explain your own posts to you? I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 where NoNukes said, "It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms." You seemed quite clearly to be referring to solar farms and wind farms, which do not work everywhere. And you have been touting fusion power, which doesn't work anywhere. Clear yet? ("And you want to be my latex salesman?") Try to follow the arguments. My statements regarding solar and wind not working everywhere were in regards to their potential to replace fossil-fuels. We'll never see a fossil-fuel-less society so long as the alternatives can't be at least as good. Fusion, if it gets going, will be better. And that is why it stands an actual chance of replacing fossil fuels.Love your enemies!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And no one has yet addressed the hurdles to wide-scale use of the alternatives that I have brought up at least twice now. Yes they have. The alternative is to hook stuff up to the grid. And you have yet to face the fact that fusion power does not work, and that we have no idea what the cost per kilowatt/hr will turn out to be if we do get it to work. If you consider the other sources of energy to be a distraction when viewed in that context, then you are not being realistic.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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NoNukes writes:
The waste products from coal are not radioactive, but non-radioactive is not the same as non-toxic. Actually coal plants do produce radioactive waste. But, yes, the other waste is HORRIBLE. Coal: simply the worst way to make energy. See this article in Scientific American: Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste - Scientific American Edited by xongsmith, : simply- xongsmith, 5.7d
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Jon writes:
What do we do with coal ash, Jon? We are increasingly finding ways to recycle more of it into useful products. What are we recycling nuclear waste into? See Message 43, See this article in Scientific American: Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste - Scientific American Also see Coal and Water Pollution | Union of Concerned Scientists Coal is the simply the worst possible way to make energy.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2578 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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Jon writes:
Fusion, if it gets going, will be better. And that is why it stands an actual chance of replacing fossil fuels. By the time fusion is ready to replace other energy sources, fossil fuel will no longer be in use. Fusion might be able to replace solar, wind and hydro-electric.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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