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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
Theodoric
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Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 13 of 96 (741193)
11-10-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:38 AM


So you have no evidence that the Civil War was an example of your god's wrath. Come on present some argument.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:38 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:56 AM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 15 of 96 (741199)
11-10-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
11-10-2014 11:56 AM


Funny you would use Lincoln. He wasn't much of a christian. At best he was a deist.

Besides all that why does what Lincoln said or thought mean anything?

Your second example is just laughable. Read my signature below.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 11:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 12:11 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 49 of 96 (741312)
11-11-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 11:51 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Seems that people can manipulate figures to get any result they want. Phat removing China and Russia from the Allies is self serving and there is not rational basis for it. They were allies against the Axis, plain and simple. I am sure there is some sort of feeling that Commies should not be counted as an ally, but China was not a godless commie state at that time.
Ignorance may be bliss but is no way to build a basis for an argument.

Edited by Theodoric, : Reworded first sentence


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:51 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 64 of 96 (741363)
11-11-2014 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
11-10-2014 4:31 PM


We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over.

Slavery was just one of the issues and not the main. The two main issues were, the economic differences between the north and the south, and states rights versus federal rights. Slavery was one manifestation of both of these issues but not the only manifestation.

Also, the institution of slavery itself was not the biggest factor in the slavery debate. The expansion or non-expansion of slavery was one of the issues that pushed the tipping point. If the southern states had agreed not to expand slavery the Civil War would never have happened. A future conflict may have happened but the economic infeasibility of slavery may have prevented a future conflict from happening. Slavery may have died a slow death until the dead enders were forced to change either by law or force of arms. Either way it would have been a much smaller and less traumatic break. I am not saying that that alternative history would have been better, just that it would have been different.

You have to be very careful when you state that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. Few things in history are black and white. There are many nuances and many other issues that tie in and wrap around each other.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 4:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-11-2014 8:36 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 1:46 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 65 of 96 (741365)
11-11-2014 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 12:00 PM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
In some sense, the South never completely recovered from its beating. King Cotton was dead, and entire caste system was outlawed, and large portions of the south never figured out a substitute. A number of the deepest Southern states are among the poorest, leas educated, sucking off of the federal teat states in the Union.

All of these things would have happened without the Civil War. Slavery was an nonviable economic system before the war. All of the problems you mention come from the pre-civil war society of the south. The collapse of the southern economy was inevitable. Whether the north could have facilitated a slow soft landing remains a question. I think ultimately the south would have lashed out some how no matter what.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 12:00 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 66 of 96 (741366)
11-11-2014 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
11-11-2014 12:05 PM


But the idea that slavery was just a side issue is complete, Lost Cause, horse ca-ca.

In a sense it was a side issue. That the whole southern economy was based on slavery makes it a very large side issue. Slavery was a manifestation of the real issues of the economic differences and states right issues.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 12:05 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 6:29 PM Theodoric has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 68 of 96 (741368)
11-11-2014 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
11-11-2014 6:29 PM


The importation of slaves had already been outlawed in the US before the Civil War.

Yes, and pressure to reopen the international slave trade helped to radicalize the south even further.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 6:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 70 of 96 (741372)
11-11-2014 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
11-11-2014 8:36 PM


It is a difficult nuanced thing. The thread you link to does not go counter to anything I have said here. States rights and the economic issues were tied around slavery. Without slavery there would not have been a civil war, that being said slavery was not the sole cause of the civil war.

Looking back at my arguments here I guess I did not express them as well as I could have. The point I am trying to make is that it is easy to just state that slavery was the cause of the Civil War. That is a simplistic and naive argument. Slavery was the linchpin that all the causes revolved around, but in no way was the sole cause.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-11-2014 8:36 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 11:09 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 81 of 96 (741463)
11-12-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
11-12-2014 12:19 PM


Before the Civil War the United States had almost no standing army. To alleviate the need for a trained military force each state had a militia(National Guard). In reality few states had a true active militia.
A number of arsenals were seized by irregular forces that were not official militias. Also, some of the arsenals were seized post secession by Confederate Army forces or militias designated by the new confederate states. To place any blame on the militia system seems kinda silly.

Also, remember most of these arsenals were lightly manned. The Little Rock, AR arsenal had 65 men, the Missouri Arsenal had 3 men. The group that seized the Missouri Arsenal were not associated with any governmental unit at all. They were marauding southern sympathizers.

The arsenals were so lightly defended that it was not necessary to use an organized military force to seize them. After secession most were hundreds of miles behind enemy lines. Their seizure was inevitable, militias or not.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 88 of 96 (741522)
11-13-2014 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
11-12-2014 5:40 PM


I agree with Cat Sci you are wrong. So please prove you are not wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 11-12-2014 5:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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