Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9031 total)
56 online now:
jar, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 53 visitors)
Newest Member: robertleva
Post Volume: Total: 884,873 Year: 2,519/14,102 Month: 184/703 Week: 5/158 Day: 5/10 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 96 (741170)
11-10-2014 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
11-10-2014 10:17 AM


jar writes:

Let's look at deaths. Recent figures point to about 140,000 Union combat deaths and 75,000 Confederate combat deaths.

Perhaps it would be more instructive to consider it in terms of percentage:

This is from Civil War Trust:

At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.

Here is what Lincoln said in his second inaugural address, referring to the war as God’s “mighty scourge”:

" If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 10:17 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jon, posted 11-10-2014 11:01 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:13 AM Faith has responded
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-10-2014 11:23 AM Faith has responded
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2014 12:30 PM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 12:38 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 96 (741180)
11-10-2014 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
11-10-2014 11:13 AM


The conclusion I would draw is that God held both North and South equally responsible for slavery. Probably because a nation is considered to be a unit under one covenant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:13 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:27 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 96 (741186)
11-10-2014 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
11-10-2014 11:27 AM


However, as far as percentage of the population goes, the South lost more than the North.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 11-10-2014 11:42 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2014 11:52 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 96 (741194)
11-10-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
11-10-2014 11:52 AM


1) Lincoln thought so, as quoted above.

2) And nothing happens without God, as scripture says:

Isaiah 45:7 ;I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Evil meaning calamity, not sin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2014 11:52 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2014 12:08 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 96 (741201)
11-10-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Theodoric
11-10-2014 12:08 PM


There is some question about whether Lincoln was a Christian, he may have been despite the ambiguity, but even Deists in America know their Bible and their Christian theology and appeal to it, as the Deist founders did also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 11-10-2014 12:08 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 96 (741215)
11-10-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-10-2014 11:23 AM


I haven't been able to figure out how you are understanding that quote from Lincoln. He's quoting Jesus, by the way, in case you don't recognize it. The offense in this context would be slavery and the woe would be God's judgment against those by whom it came.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 11-10-2014 11:23 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 96 (741217)
11-10-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
11-10-2014 12:38 PM


Re: Faith helps show the God she markets is a fool.
The nation suffered horribly from the war, so many families losing loved ones, and I don't think the suffering can be reckoned just in the numbers of soldiers killed. The South was absolutely destroyed and never fully recovered.

(a little fact that is neither here nor there: I had a great great uncle who fought for the north and died in Andersonville prison of disease. He was only about twenty. A cousin inherited his sword. How my brother would love to have it.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 12:38 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 96 (741218)
11-10-2014 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
11-10-2014 12:30 PM


The numbers as you demonstrate it show that the South was the bigger loser, which is an answer to jar's claim that it was the North.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2014 12:30 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:17 PM Faith has responded
 Message 26 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 2:55 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 96 (741223)
11-10-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 2:17 PM


OK I misread the decimal point, sorry, still contradicts jar's huge number of losses for the North as opposed to the South.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:40 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 96 (741226)
11-10-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 2:40 PM


My point way back there already was that the percentage of what was lost is what matters, not the absolute numbers, because there was such a discrepancy in the size of the populations. By that more reasonable way of looking at it the losses were roughly equal.

The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.

Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.

The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage.

Jar said the North lost more. He was wrong.

how I remember the conversation, I don't have the patience to go back and review it right now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 2:40 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 96 (741228)
11-10-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
11-10-2014 2:55 PM


Re: Faith endorses New Math as well as New Speak
I may be lousy at math but I'm not lying.

75000 is roughly half of 140 thousand. What's your problem?

The North had more than twice the population of the South: 22 million to 9 million.

Their army was roughly twice the size of the South's.

The South lost roughly half the number the North did, or about the same percentage as the North lost.

Jar said the North lost more. He was wrong.

AND BY THE WAY I HAVE NO STAKE IN THESE NUMBERS. I couldn't care less who had the greater loss.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 2:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 3:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 96 (741234)
11-10-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:11 PM


I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides. That's the theory of others here, and I eventually said I don't think the numbers can tell us that.

I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers..

And if you will read the WHOLE thread you'll find answers to the rest of your insulting and blasphemous nonsense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:29 PM Faith has responded
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 11-11-2014 6:14 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 96 (741239)
11-10-2014 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:29 PM


To say it was God's judgment is only to say that it was a terrible calamity, a lot of people died and there was a lot of suffering. You all have added the specifics, I'm not interested in the specifics. God has his own way of measuring sin and judgment, He sees things we can't see, and I don't try to second-guess him.

But jar was wrong that the North was judged more harshly as far as numbers go, it was more or less equal though the South's losses were somewhat higher proportionally. But the big loss, as I also said, was the devastation to the land and property of the South. Seems to me that puts them way over on the side of having sustained the bigger loss.

BUT AGAIN, I HAVE NO STAKE IN ANY OF THIS. God judges things according to His own standards and there's no particular reason we should be able to figure them out beyond the most general observations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:51 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:56 PM Faith has responded
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 5:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 96 (741245)
11-10-2014 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 3:56 PM


You're actually claiming that the murder of fifty million Protestants and seventeen million Jews, Muslims, atheists and witches by the Roman Church over a six hundred year period is judgment and not persecution? We figure the Civil War was judgment because of slavery, which was the main issue it was fought over. What sins would you impute to the sixty seven million killed over six hundred years? The reason given by the RCC was that they disagreed with them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 11:57 AM Faith has responded
 Message 64 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:18 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 300 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 96 (741248)
11-10-2014 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
11-10-2014 4:39 PM


You apparently don't mind twisting the truth, since what I said only discounted specifics, not general reasons for judgment and I was VERY clear about that. Obviously you don't care, any old lie will do when it serves your bias.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-10-2014 4:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021