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Author Topic:   The US Civil War as an example of God's Wrath.
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 96 (741206)
11-10-2014 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
11-10-2014 10:53 AM


At the beginning of the war the Northern states had a combined population of 22 million people. The Southern states had a combined population of about 9 million. This disparity was reflected in the size of the armies in the field. The Union forces outnumbered the Confederates roughly two to one.

Let's do the math then

140,000/22 Million = 0.64 %
75,000/9 million = 0.83 %

I'm not seeing much of an argument here. Maybe we should take into account the fact that Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware were slave holding states?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 10:53 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 1:28 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 96 (741294)
11-11-2014 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
11-10-2014 3:18 PM


I have not said one word in favor of the idea that the numbers killed had anything to do with how God judged the two sides.

That's untrue. You suggested the percentages meant something. You continued to say that even after I pointed out how trivial the difference in percentages was. 0.6% compared to 0.8%.

That's the theory of others here, and I eventually said I don't think the numbers can tell us that.

Eventually, yes. But even after saying that you posted nonsense number arguments.

I've been talking about relative losses and to lose a higher percentage of your population is a greater loss, therefore the South sustained a greater loss than the North, in contrast with jar's comparison of the absolute numbers

Those are still numbers arguments.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 11-10-2014 3:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 6:41 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 96 (741296)
11-11-2014 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
11-10-2014 5:06 PM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Faith, which is larger, 140,000 deaths or 75,000 deaths?

I think there is an argument that the loser suffered more. Large portions of the South were utterly destroyed and their human capital was liberated. For period up until reconstruction, the Southern states were forced to take subordinate roles in how the country was governed.

One might make similar arguments regarding WWIII. The allied casualties were something like four times as large as those of the axis countries. Yet Japan and Germany were utterly destroyed. Even if you discount the large number of Russian casualties, the allied total casualties were well over double those of the axis.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 11-10-2014 5:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-11-2014 6:50 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 46 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 8:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 96 (741311)
11-11-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
11-11-2014 6:50 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
Are you sure about that? I looked at the statistics here....looks like China had 20 million deaths and Russia 25 million, but without those two the axis had way more deaths than the US and Britain.

For one thing, you are discounting China and Russia. I only discounted Russia. I don't see any good reason to discount China. Or Russia either.

On the other hand, I note that bad things happened to Job and his family without God's wrath being involved.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 11-11-2014 6:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 11:55 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 96 (741314)
11-11-2014 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
11-11-2014 8:38 AM


Re: one of these things is not like the other...
But the Nation, the US, came out stronger and wealthier than before the war. Remember Faith's claim was that the US Civil War was an example of God's Wrath on the nation for slavery.

I don't support Faith's position. But it is impossible to argue that the south did not get the worst end of the war. Losing had tremendous repercussions.

In some sense, the South never completely recovered from its beating. King Cotton was dead, and entire caste system was outlawed, and large portions of the south never figured out a substitute. A number of the deepest Southern states are among the poorest, leas educated, sucking off of the federal teat states in the Union.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 11-11-2014 8:38 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:25 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 96 (741315)
11-11-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
11-11-2014 11:57 AM


Just maybe the Civil War was just another power grab with slavery being just another side issue.

I don't want to make this a referendum on the civil war. I think that there is actually an open thread in which we can do that. But the idea that slavery was just a side issue is complete, Lost Cause, horse ca-ca.

I see that you are Canadian. No harm done.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 11-11-2014 11:57 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 6:27 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 54 of 96 (741324)
11-11-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
11-11-2014 1:10 PM


Abraham Lincoln himself believed it was God's judgment for slavery

I know he's on Mount Rushmore and all, but Lincoln is not exactly known as a world class theologian.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:55 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 96 (741336)
11-11-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
11-11-2014 1:55 PM


So did Abraham Lincoln, and they all say basic things all Christians agree with. Except perhaps modern "liberal" Christians.

So your claim is that we can distinguish between real Christians and liberals by their acceptance of this Civil War, wrath of God position?

You actually believe that this is a mainstream Christian position? Much is explained...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 1:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 11-11-2014 2:43 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 71 of 96 (741378)
11-11-2014 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Theodoric
11-11-2014 8:47 PM


in no way the sole cause

Okay I can agree with this. I'd also suggest that slavery ended up being the sole issue over which the sides could not compromise. Once the Missouri Compromise was undone in the Dred Scott decision, there was no way to settle the differences between North and South over the expansion of slavery to either sides satisfaction. In fact that problem led directly to Lincoln's election despite his receiving not one electoral vote from a southern state.

Even after secession, the issue of what would happen in the territories and what was to happen to runaway slaves was probably going to lead to shooting.

I won't bother with responding to your other posts given what you say here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Theodoric, posted 11-11-2014 8:47 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 11:52 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 96 (741448)
11-12-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
11-12-2014 8:20 AM


Re: And where is your support?
Why did only the US get punished and not Cuba, Jamaica, the Virgin Islands, Bermuda ...

Good question.

Fundamentalists believe that the United States is essentially the Western inheritors of all of the OT promises made to Israel. So its kinda similar to how you discipline your own kids but not the neighbors kids when they break into your Boone's Farm stash.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 8:20 AM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 96 (741452)
11-12-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
11-12-2014 11:52 AM


was the fact that the states had their own armies ("militias").

Cute, but probably wrong. Both sides raised real armies pretty quickly. Those armies did most of the fighting. At best the militias were ready reserves. Not a flaw, in my opinion, but perhaps Canadians feel differently. The militias/national guard still have essential roles.

Maybe the Civil War was God's punishment for having a flawed constitution.

The constitution had a number of flaws, but the primary one was that support for slavery and and inequality was built into it. We've since amended the constitution to remove much of those issues.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 96 (741525)
11-13-2014 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
11-12-2014 12:19 PM


We've since amended the constitution to remove much of those issues.

I'm glad to hear it's perfect now.

Didn't make that claim. I said that the constitution was amended to address some specific important issues. And even then I said that they were mostly addressed.

Yes I did see the smiley, but I also noted that you removed all of the context from what I said. Now that's funny.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 11-12-2014 12:19 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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