Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,652 Year: 4,909/9,624 Month: 257/427 Week: 3/64 Day: 1/2 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are you Racist? Homophobic? etc
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 511 of 578 (755486)
04-08-2015 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by nwr
04-08-2015 9:36 AM


Unfortunately, cases like this are all too common. Our "justice system" is more a system of injustice.
I don't think it's "the system," it's the moral failure of the "public servants" that makes for so many cases of injustice. The best system couldn't rise above the moral level of its officials, and even the worst system could be improved by officials with a conscience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by nwr, posted 04-08-2015 9:36 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 7:50 PM Faith has replied
 Message 518 by nwr, posted 04-08-2015 11:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 512 of 578 (755491)
04-08-2015 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Faith
04-08-2015 6:38 PM


The best system couldn't rise above the moral level of its officials, and even the worst system could be improved by officials with a conscience.
Part of the system is the idea that states have rights in the finality of their verdicts. In addition to whatever errors and/or malfeasance occurred in the original trial, the state indulged itself in 16 years of avoiding evidence that would have put things right. I think we can point to the system as contributing to the result.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 6:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 8:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 513 of 578 (755494)
04-08-2015 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by NoNukes
04-08-2015 7:50 PM


Contributing, OK. But in the case of Hinton it was a failure to acknowledge that forensic evidence should have exonerated him and that's a human moral failure, where an honest assessment of the evidence would have made the state's policy irrelevant.
This was very similar to the case of Michael Morton a white man who was convicted of the murder of his wife, where there was evidence that was ignored until 24 years later when DNA testing finally exonerated him. They had ignored a bloody bandana found on the property and also ignored his child's saying it was a "monster" and not his father who killed his mother. Plus the fact that he'd been at work all day and there were witnesses to that fact. Not racism in this case, or poverty either, just moral failure to care enough to follow through on the evidence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 7:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 8:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 523 by saab93f, posted 04-09-2015 6:08 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 514 of 578 (755496)
04-08-2015 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by Faith
04-08-2015 8:07 PM


But in the case of Hinton it was a failure to acknowledge that forensic evidence should have exonerated him and that's a human moral failure, where an honest assessment of the evidence would have made the state's policy irrelevant.
That's simply not correct. The state's right to respect for its jury verdicts is difficult to overcome and it is respected by the Supreme Court. Just being honest is not enough. Evidence that simply casts doubt on the correctness of a verdict is not enough to get a new trial once a verdict has been rendered. The standard for reversal based on new evidence is very near certainty that the verdict was wrong unless malfeasance is proven. And guess where the burdens of proof lie after conviction?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 8:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 8:47 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 515 of 578 (755497)
04-08-2015 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by NoNukes
04-08-2015 8:43 PM


So just doing the job right in the first place isn't enough for you, or you assume moral failure anyway and that's why the state's laws matter. Seems like a strange order of things to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 8:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 10:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 516 of 578 (755504)
04-08-2015 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Faith
04-08-2015 8:47 PM


So just doing the job right in the first place isn't enough for you, or you assume moral failure anyway and that's why the state's laws matter. Seems like a strange order of things to me.
Lol! You find it strange to assume that men fail? Isn't that what the Fall is all about?
Recall that my remarks are about the delay with exonerating Hinton and not with his original conviction.
An honest prosecutor who wanted to review the Hinton case would have had a tough road to overcome. Prosecutor is generally a public office which requires a tough on crime stance to get re-elected. I'm sure the electorates opinion of Hinton was not very high. On top of that, the legal hurdle to overturn a jury verdict is also very high, and such a burden is not met simply by the DA agreeing that some evidence was misinterpreted. A few prosecutors do spend some of their jurisdiction's time and lawyer resources looking at bad convictions but that cannot be very popular to do in many jurisdictions.
To not attach some responsibility to the system which places obstacles in the way of even honest men is to be completely naive and marks an unfounded acceptance of the idea that things cannot be better than they are. As I lawyer, I know the values of the legal system and its way of working perhaps better than many. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. But it is unrealistic not to appreciate that some of the virtues are double edge swords that can grind up the innocent.
Most wingnuts would tell you that Hinton should have been long dead by the time he was executed. It's a good thing for all of us that Hinton is even still here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 8:47 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2015 10:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2193 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 517 of 578 (755506)
04-08-2015 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by NoNukes
04-08-2015 10:27 PM


The Public Defender should be doing a lot of the work in these kinds of cases.
But from what I've learned, their budgets are generally much smaller than those of the District Attorney, who prosecutes cases.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2015 10:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by NoNukes, posted 04-09-2015 2:06 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6421
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 518 of 578 (755512)
04-08-2015 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Faith
04-08-2015 6:38 PM


I don't think it's "the system," it's the moral failure of the "public servants" that makes for so many cases of injustice.
It's the system.
If it were just the moral failings of a few public servants, you would have many fewer cases.
The example that I like to use was that of Rolando Cruz, because it happened in my back yard. I paid close attention to the court trial, and it seemed wrong from the get go.
To put it simply, Cruz was framed. And when problems turned up, he was framed again in the retrial with a different story from those who made the charges.
We have a justice system where prosecutors are rewarded for getting convictions, rather than for getting at the truth.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 6:38 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Jon, posted 04-09-2015 12:45 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 519 of 578 (755514)
04-09-2015 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by nwr
04-08-2015 11:35 PM


We have a justice system where prosecutors are rewarded for getting convictions, rather than for getting at the truth.
And that, not racism, is the biggest part of the problem.
Once they've pegged you, you're ready to go to jail unless you've got lots of money to defend yourself.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by nwr, posted 04-08-2015 11:35 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by ramoss, posted 04-09-2015 1:27 AM Jon has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 699 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 520 of 578 (755517)
04-09-2015 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Jon
04-09-2015 12:45 AM


And that, not racism, is the biggest part of the problem.
Once they've pegged you, you're ready to go to jail unless you've got lots of money to defend yourself.
One of the problems is that certain minorities are just more likely to be pegged than others. THe way our current justice department works, a white middle class kid getting caught with pot will be given a slap on the wrist for a first time offense, but it is much more likely that a black kid of the same age would get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for a first time non-violent offense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Jon, posted 04-09-2015 12:45 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 522 by Jon, posted 04-09-2015 2:07 AM ramoss has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 521 of 578 (755519)
04-09-2015 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 517 by Coyote
04-08-2015 10:43 PM


The Public Defender should be doing a lot of the work in these kinds of cases.
Generally speaking, there is no budget for the public defender to handle appeals. Those guys and gals have their hands full pleading cases and defending indigent defendants at trial.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Coyote, posted 04-08-2015 10:43 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 522 of 578 (755520)
04-09-2015 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by ramoss
04-09-2015 1:27 AM


One of the problems is that certain minorities are just more likely to be pegged than others.
That problem happens well before the court room.
THe way our current justice department works, a white middle class kid getting caught with pot will be given a slap on the wrist for a first time offense, but it is much more likely that a black kid of the same age would get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for a first time non-violent offense.
It'd be interesting to see statistics that break the matter down at each level: search, arrest, arraignment, conviction.
The proportion of black convictions is higher than white convictions, but what's the proportion of black arrests?
I have a feeling that we would see that once the matter comes to court, skin color doesn't change the statistics as much (granted juries have their own biases), except perhaps for the sentencing. I think at that point what matters most is how much money you have.
If so, it would mean that fixing the problem in the courts requires a different approach than that required for fixing the problem regarding arrest.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by ramoss, posted 04-09-2015 1:27 AM ramoss has not replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 523 of 578 (755527)
04-09-2015 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Faith
04-08-2015 8:07 PM


Contributing, OK. But in the case of Hinton it was a failure to acknowledge that forensic evidence should have exonerated him and that's a human moral failure, where an honest assessment of the evidence would have made the state's policy irrelevant.
While it could be interpreted as a cheap shot, Id be willing to guess that most (if not all) of these moral failures were Christian. That means that faith or religion does not make people any more moral.
While I live in a country that is racially quite homogenous, I cannot relate to the tensions and kind of bottom-current that lies between the races in the US. That said for a foreigner it is quite obvious that "the system" has a bias against the blacks and that the blacks are not doing enough to make things change.
In here we have a minority (Gypsies or Roma-people) of some 10.000 people. Their culture is based on vagrant lifestyle and lack of education. Previously they made their living on selling horses but nowadays the majority just live on welfare (and petty crime). It is jokingly said that the thieving 99% gives the entire group a bad name. In reality it is way less than that but proportionally very much higher than in any other group.
If they really wanted, they could put an end to crime in such a small group but...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Faith, posted 04-08-2015 8:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1532 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 524 of 578 (755595)
04-09-2015 8:18 PM


Nobody has mentioned the murder of the black man Walter Scott by officer Slager after a routine traffic stop. Is that the "system" or is that just a bad cop? Or maybe he's just one of many with a racist bent. He outright murdered the guy then tried to cover it up by making it look like the guy stole his tazer. If it hadn't been for someone able to video the situation there would only have been the officer's word for what happened. It may be that racism is rife in that police department but again is that the "system" or a cultural situation apart from the system? I suppose it's partly a semantic matter but I doubt they have racist official policies, which would be The System, what they have is a culture of racism.
The black guy ran away, and maybe we'll find out why eventually. So far no explanation has come out about that. That would be resisting arrest but that's no justification for shooting eight times at him. The cop had to invent a story to justify that.
So lately we've been getting real evidence of racism in police departments. I'm glad it's coming out.

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Jon, posted 04-09-2015 10:43 PM Faith has replied
 Message 527 by nwr, posted 04-09-2015 11:17 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 528 by NoNukes, posted 04-10-2015 5:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 525 of 578 (755606)
04-09-2015 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Faith
04-09-2015 8:18 PM


I did...
Nobody has mentioned the murder of the black man Walter Scott by officer Slager after a routine traffic stop.
Another Police Shooting
It's hard to say whether it was racism or not. More information has been coming to light since the news first broke.
It is almost certain that the cop was 100% in the wrong. If he had any fear for his life, it was certainly misplaced.
But again, it's not clear if his actions were race-motivated.
Edited by Jon, : highlight link

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Faith, posted 04-09-2015 8:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by Faith, posted 04-09-2015 11:10 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024