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Author Topic:   Are you Racist? Homophobic? etc
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 541 of 578 (756057)
04-15-2015 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by NoNukes
04-15-2015 3:12 AM


You need to read some early American history to see how Christian the laws of this country were originally. Better, you should read the first three hundred years (from the early 17th century), and read at least a hundred writers per century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2015 3:12 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2015 7:26 AM Faith has replied
 Message 543 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2015 9:27 AM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 542 of 578 (756062)
04-15-2015 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Faith
04-15-2015 3:26 AM


You need to read some early American history to see how Christian the laws of this country were originally.
I appreciate the recommendation, but I am not so ignorant, and I know what I would find.
First of all, your comment would not appear to be relevant to what South Carolina law is today. Second of all, I am not overly impressed with the original laws of this country. I understand that at one point in American history, you could hang witches (before you jerk your knee notice that I said "hang"). In North Carolina the state could execute bigamists and people who helped a slave run away. I find on balance that the departure from the laws in the early part of this countries history to be an improvement. But of course that's just my opinion
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 3:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 543 of 578 (756065)
04-15-2015 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Faith
04-15-2015 3:26 AM


US law has never been based on the bible. The basis of US law is english common law and roman law.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 3:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:29 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 544 of 578 (756066)
04-15-2015 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Theodoric
04-15-2015 9:27 AM


You would then be very surprised to find out that English Common Law was based on the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Theodoric, posted 04-15-2015 9:27 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2015 9:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 550 by vimesey, posted 04-15-2015 11:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 545 of 578 (756067)
04-15-2015 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
04-15-2015 1:22 AM


God and Capital Punishment
I understand why the state might favor putting murderers to death. But why does Faith?
Don't you know that by supporting, voting for, and condoning those "state authorities" who implement the death penalty that you also have the blood of the executed on your hands?
... but state authorities administer God's justice ...
I sure as hell hope not!
quote:
Proverbs 20:22 (NRSV):
Do not say, 'I will repay evil'; wait for the Lord, and he will help you.
quote:
Romans 12:17—21 (NRSV):
Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.' No, 'if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.' Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 1:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:39 AM Jon has replied
 Message 556 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 12:01 PM Jon has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 546 of 578 (756068)
04-15-2015 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by NoNukes
04-15-2015 7:26 AM


Right. YOU aren't impressed with the original laws of the country, therefore the laws of the original thirteen colonies, which were of course based on the Bible, should have been ignored completely and treated as trash. They almost were, in the effort to establish tolerance of all beliefs, but in those days tolerance did not mean equality of belief because that would encourage overthrowing the original Christianity by all the anti-Christian religions. So it wasn't until very recently that people of YOUR opinion made it mean equality of belief. Hello Sharia Law. I wonder how happy that's going to make you in the end.
You really should make it a project to find out what they thought in those days.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2015 7:26 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2015 11:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 547 of 578 (756069)
04-15-2015 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Jon
04-15-2015 9:34 AM


Re: God and Capital Punishment
Of course as usual we get confusion between rules for the individual and rules for government. So what else is new. You don't like the idea of punishing an outright murderer? No, you'd rather punish the judge. Amazing.
It is only the blood of the innocent one has on one's hands, not the blood of the guilty. Slager has the blood of Scott on his hands, but a just determination and punishment of his guilt would bring peace and not bloodguilt on the nation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Jon, posted 04-15-2015 9:34 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Jon, posted 04-15-2015 3:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9533
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 548 of 578 (756070)
04-15-2015 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
04-15-2015 9:29 AM


deleted
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 549 of 578 (756071)
04-15-2015 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Tangle
04-15-2015 9:45 AM


Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England.
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book 1 of 4, by William Blackstone.
Search on "God" and "Christ" not "Bible."
ABE: You deleted your message?
Another copy of Blackstone, Table of Contents:
Avalon Project - Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2015 9:45 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2015 11:46 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 04-15-2015 1:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 550 of 578 (756085)
04-15-2015 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
04-15-2015 9:29 AM


There's undeniably some influence from the bible, but Roman law and local custom have a greater influence. The English legal system is the biggest mish-mash of origins and influences imaginable - and it continues to evolve. Works quite well though.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:29 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by 1.61803, posted 04-15-2015 11:21 AM vimesey has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 551 of 578 (756086)
04-15-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by Faith
04-15-2015 9:36 AM


Right. YOU aren't impressed with the original laws of the country, therefore the laws of the original thirteen colonies, which were of course based on the Bible, should have been ignored completely and treated as trash.
You have that backwards. The application of the death penalty in accordance with the original laws of the colonies, whatever its basis, were ridiculous on its face, and therefore I am glad to see that law gone. I gave a few examples of what I was talking about. Unless you are prepared to defend those as correct applications of God's law, then you would not seem to have made a point.
but in those days tolerance did not mean equality of belief
Actually, the original idea was that individual states would be set up based on whatever religion they wanted. Primarily that turned out to be the Catholic Church and the Church of England although there were some small enclaves of other religions.
In any event, the original idea of equality in this country was extremely limited to the point of being morally indefensible. It is absolutely no guide a system of equality anyone ought to find tolerable. Yet you seem to think of it as freedom.
Hello Sharia Law. I wonder how happy that's going to make you in the end.
Typical.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 552 of 578 (756088)
04-15-2015 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by vimesey
04-15-2015 11:17 AM


"Works quite well though."
Yeah, for blokes with lots of lolly.
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by vimesey, posted 04-15-2015 11:17 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by vimesey, posted 04-15-2015 11:23 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 161 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 553 of 578 (756089)
04-15-2015 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by 1.61803
04-15-2015 11:21 AM


I don't disagree, but that's more to do with the inherent cost of the legal system, than with the laws themselves.
Off topic though ;-)

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by 1.61803, posted 04-15-2015 11:21 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by 1.61803, posted 04-15-2015 11:42 AM vimesey has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 554 of 578 (756095)
04-15-2015 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by vimesey
04-15-2015 11:23 AM


Well lets see if I can get back on topic.....
Faith says English law is based on the Bible.
And......... many of those English laws were, as mentioned, borrowed from the Greeks & Romans .
A couple of openly gay civilizations. oh my!!

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by vimesey, posted 04-15-2015 11:23 AM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 555 of 578 (756098)
04-15-2015 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Faith
04-15-2015 9:52 AM


Blackstone's commentaries on criminal law are by and large post law apologetics. That is they attempt to show us that laws which are as they are are just and correct. This is not a source to be relied on for defending the Biblical basis of the law can be defended.
Commentaries on the Laws of England - Wikipedia
quote:
Of Public Wrongs is Blackstone's treatise on criminal law. Here, Blackstone the apologist takes centre stage; he seeks to explain how the criminal laws of England were just and merciful, despite becoming later known as the Bloody Code for their severity. He does however accept that "It is a melancholy truth, that among the variety of actions which men are daily liable to commit, no less than an hundred and sixty have been declared by Act of Parliament to be felonious without benefit of clergy; or, in other words, to be worthy of instant death". Blackstone frequently had to resort to the devices of assuring his reader that the laws as written were not actually enforced, and that the King's power of pardon existed to correct any hardships or injustices.
That's Blackstone's criminal law. Unduly harsh, relying on the King to fix things, and in some cases celebrated by departure from what was actually applied.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 04-15-2015 9:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
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