Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are you Racist? Homophobic? etc
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 578 (744031)
12-07-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jon
12-07-2014 11:55 AM


Stop pretending that the police have a duty to get the shit beat out of them and allow people to resist arrest.
There are limits on the power to use lethal force, even by police. That's why the choke hold was outlawed in the first place. Police power should not include provoking a confrontation by applying a lethal hold and then calling the resulting "thrashing about" while dying "resisting arrest".
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 11:55 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 6:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 47 of 578 (744032)
12-07-2014 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
12-07-2014 12:23 PM


Police shouldn't show up when someone is waving a gun around ("probably fake"which wasn't true, see belowbut potentially real, and in either case that information was not related to the police)?
To be specific, there was no need for Pb (flying lead) intervention. The policeman who said that the kid was about twenty was a blooming idiot. He probably had no ability whatsoever to judge the age of the kid.
But that doesn't mean Tamir Rice was a good kid. Good kids don't go to the park pointing BB guns at people.
Didn't say he was a good kid. I'm suggesting that absent a criminally negligent police response, he wouldn't be a dead kid.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 12:23 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 5:40 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 578 (744033)
12-07-2014 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
12-07-2014 12:23 PM


Get your head out of your ass.
Really, Jon?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 12:23 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 5:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 578 (744035)
12-07-2014 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 1:27 PM


Perhaps the police ought to gun down everyone who's open-carrying a gun, or something that looks like one. I'll leave that up to you to decide. But as in fact they don't, one has to wonder why they did so in this particular case. I mean, no-one shot these guys.
Different situation.
The police probably shouldn't have shot Rice. The video is of poor quality and I haven't watched it close enough to make my own judgement on what happened. However, if Rice did go for his gun as the police pulled up, then the officer's knee-jerk reaction is mostly justified.
If a police officer approached one of those rednecks and he began lifting his gun toward the officer, I'd expect him to wind up with a bullet somewhere in his body.
But again, the situations are very different. One is a protest(?); the other is a person with a gun menacing the neighborhood park. Police are justified in treating the situations differently.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 1:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 4:23 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 50 of 578 (744037)
12-07-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
12-07-2014 3:49 PM


But again, the situations are very different. One is a protest(?); the other is a person with a gun menacing the neighborhood park.
You say there's a difference? What does it consist in? What besides his skin color, means that he's "menacing the neighborhood park" rather than exercising his constitutional rights for Freedom and the American Way in it, like it is when white people take (real) guns into a park?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-07-2014 3:49 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 4:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 578 (744038)
12-07-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 4:23 PM


Are all those vaunted IQ points of yours rolling around in your skull like so many loose marbles? What makes the difference? The fact that the kid was WAVING IT AROUND, acting in a way some people thought threatening enough to call the cops. Sheesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 4:23 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 4:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 5:03 PM Faith has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 52 of 578 (744040)
12-07-2014 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
12-07-2014 4:25 PM


Yes, one person did call the cops, and said the gun was "probably fake". (How manacing!) I'm not sure what "waving it around" is meant to mean. I don't think that white people hold their guns completely still, because for one thing they wouldn't be able to take them home with them in that case.
Now, please, explain why the kid was a menace, but this guy's a guardian of freedom?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 4:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 5:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 53 of 578 (744041)
12-07-2014 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
12-07-2014 4:25 PM


Compare and contrast:
Parents at a Forysth County park abruptly stopped a children's baseball game after growing suspicions of the behavior of a man carrying a gun in a waist holster Tuesday night. [...] He scared people to the point where we stopped the game, took the kids out of the dugout and behind the dugout, and kind of hunkered down, Rabb said.
Park users flooded 911 with 22 calls about the man. Forysth County deputies questioned the man, and found that he had a permit for the handgun. Authorities said since the man made no verbal threats or gestures, they could neither arrest him nor ask him to leave the park.
See, he scared people, he had a real gun, 22 people called the police to express their fear, and that's his constitutional right, as conservatives are eager to explain. But they are also eager to explain that a black child with a toy is a menace who's just asking to be shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 4:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 12-07-2014 5:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 5:17 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 578 (744042)
12-07-2014 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 4:42 PM


As Jon keeps saying the police probably shouldn't have shot him. I'm responding to your saying what's the difference between a bunch of white guys carrying guns pointing down and a guy in a park waving a gun around. It's the waving. Real gun owners know how to hold their guns safely. My father took us all shooting as kids, out in the desert or the fields of the family ranch, and the one thing he said over and over again was Keep the gun pointed down when you're carrying it. Of course that was a rifle. A hand gun would normally be holstered and if it's in a person's hand instead, then it would look menacing.
I just watched one of the videos at You Tube and unfortunately the shooting by the cops is blocked by the police car and although the gun isn't visible in the kid's hand the cops are both acting in "threatened" mode, pointing their guns at this kid even after they've shot him. Which is apparently the case as he had dropped out of sight immediately behind the car.
From the video there is no way to tell the age of the guy with the gun but he's been walking around with it for some time before the cops show up. Then he sits in the gazebo for a while, looking lonely and at loose ends really, then gets up as the police car drives in and is immediately shot. From all the testimony he didn't pull the gun out but instead of raising his hands as ordered lifted his shirt to show the gun in his waistband and that is what got him shot. So it looks to me like the cops did overreact and shot before understanding the actual situation.
You know, you don't serve the cause of truth or justice by posting pictures that are completely irrelevant to the situation being discussed and accusing people of defending positions they aren't defending.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 4:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 5:19 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 55 of 578 (744044)
12-07-2014 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 5:03 PM


See, he scared people, he had a real gun, 22 people called the police to express their fear, and that's his constitutional right, as conservatives are eager to explain. But they are also eager to explain that a black child with a toy is a menace who's just asking to be shot.
Someone, black or white, wearing a holstered gun in public is no threat.
Someone, black or white, pointing a gun (real or toy) at people is a threat.
The folk that got scared and stopped the ball game should simply be pitied.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 5:03 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 578 (744045)
12-07-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 5:03 PM


Yes, guns scare people, even holstered, and I'd say that man was acting irresponsibly in that situation too although he wasn't doing anything threatening like waving it around. If he had been I'm sure he'd have been shot like the kid was. You are making irresponsible false comparisons, Dr. A.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 5:03 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 12-09-2014 12:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 57 of 578 (744046)
12-07-2014 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
12-07-2014 5:09 PM


You know, you don't serve the cause of truth or justice by posting pictures that are completely irrelevant to the situation being discussed ...
But of course they are. The question would be, was Rice treated differently? Why was he treated as a "menace" when white guys with real guns are true American heroic patriots who have done nothing wrong, and who don't get shot?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 5:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 12-07-2014 5:34 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 578 (744047)
12-07-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 2:04 PM


And yet I don't think that RAZD, or anyone else, has ever said on other thread or anyone else that people practicing open-carry should be shot just for that.
Stop being dishonest.
He wasn't just practicing open-carry. He was waving the gun around and pointing it at people.
And yet when a black kid is shot for nearly owning a gun, well, now it's his fault he got shot and anyone who doesn't think so is some kind of hypocrite ...
Stop being dishonest.
He wasn't shot for just owning the gun. He was waving the gun around and pointing it at people.
Racism is undoubtedly a problem with police (as it is almost everywhere), but we'll never be able to do anything about it so long as people in the 'let's fix racism in the police force' camp (which I consider myself a member of) are dishonest trolls like you.
Do something good for the cause and tell the truth.
You'll get more respect and might actually be able to accomplish something.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 2:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 10:13 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 578 (744048)
12-07-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by NoNukes
12-07-2014 3:35 PM


Get your head out of your ass.
Really, Jon?
Yes.
But they are your head and ass... so feel free to do what you want with them.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2014 3:35 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 578 (744049)
12-07-2014 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
12-07-2014 5:19 PM


He was treated as a "menace" because HE WAS WAVING THE GUN AROUND IN A PUBLIC PARK, didn't have it holstered, sometimes pointed it at people. Good grief. If there is a racist element in any of this it simply is not apparent from the facts of the situation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-07-2014 5:19 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024