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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 226 of 312 (836294)
07-14-2018 5:28 AM


Phats Addictions Update
I stopped counting my days of sobriety and focused instead on the ability to get right back on the "horse" after being bucked off.(relapse)

To refresh everyone's memory, I have named three primary areas of possible addictive habits in my life. By definition, the brain has molded itself around these habits and mindful daily vigilance and awareness is necessary to achieve sobriety (or changing behavior) which will occur in time.
Here is my report card:
1) Compulsive Gambling--This was my most out of control addiction and after achieving one year of sobriety I had a major relapse in late 2017 which erased my gains. Recovering from that, I have become more mindful of my patterns, triggers, and brain-related disorders that contribute to the addiction. I no longer chart my days of sobriety except to say that I am usually sober 30-45 days before occasionally lapsing for usually no longer than a day. Thus, instead of one year sober and 6 months relapse, I now get 40 days sober and 1-day lapse...followed by 30-45 more sober days. The pattern is under better control.

Mindful and healthy eating This one is subtle and is not so much an addiction as it is a lazy and bad habit. I'm working on eating healthier 80% of the time and messing up 20% of the time as a goal....and I hope to achieve a permanent healthy lifelong diet discipline that I can live with.

Emotional Addiction This one is now the primary addiction that I am working on. It goes back even farther in my life than did the problem gambling. Much of it is of a personal and sensitive nature so I won't elaborate on it here except to say that I am gaining mindfulness on what once were unconscious and harmful emotional behaviors.

In summation, I am learning more about myself and am being mindful and consciously aware of my behaviors. The summer is turning out to be productive. I am working and going to the health club at least 3 days a week. I am drinking more water as well.

Thats my report.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 227 of 312 (839769)
09-15-2018 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Tangle
03-19-2018 5:12 PM


Back On The Horse: Day 15
I am happy to report that I am firmly back under control of my addictions, and I am thankful to again be mindful and aware of my successes as well as my failures. (We learn a lot from failure)
RAZD writes:

You can do it, you have done it before, and doing it again is easier -- your brain will easily resume that learned pattern as well, but you are fighting one you've been trapped in for a long time. It takes dedication and commitment.

Every time that I cycle into this stable pattern, I bring a bit more knowledge with me into the fight.

Tangle writes:

It seems to me that you're making eating just another one of your obsessions. If you want to be 'normal' why not behave like a normal? Eating is not something you need to make into a big thing. Normal isn't researching, calibrating and chronicling everything you cook and ingest and looking for admiration; normal is just eating what you like and being sensible about it.

My Doctor agrees with you. He claims that there are many people now obsessed with ketogenic diets and extreme intermittent fasting...which I will admit that I looked into a few months ago. (He calls those people Ketards! )

As far as my basic diet goes, it is low carb all the way...but once stability has been achieved and blood sugars brought back under control, restrictions on carb intake can be relaxed. As a diabetic, I can't let carbohydrate addiction bring me down.

Today is Day 15,(started my program on September 1st) and I weigh 230. My overall goal is mental...Psychiatrists tell me that I need to move from anxiety into awareness and from addictive behavior(self-medicating the anxiety) into positive action. Again, the key word is balance and mindfulness. My overall goals are to simply become more aware of my responsibilities for my own personal health and the best methods for avoiding addictive behaviors in general. I am optimistic once again!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2018 5:12 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 228 of 312 (849675)
03-17-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
12-13-2014 10:41 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:

I'd divide Rational into Good Rational and Bad Rational. Bad Rational says there "must" be something beyond the natural and it stretches the rational beyond its limits to try to prove it. Good Rational is skeptical of Bad Rational.

Nonsense. Read
this and tell me what you think.

By the way for those so interested, I had a few relapses and mental struggles since September 2018, but overall im getting stronger mentally. I now weigh 220.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-13-2014 10:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 03-17-2019 3:16 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 229 of 312 (849676)
03-17-2019 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
03-17-2019 2:50 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

Nonsense.


Explain.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 03-17-2019 2:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-18-2019 7:15 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 230 of 312 (849690)
03-18-2019 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by ringo
03-17-2019 3:16 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
If you bothered to read my link, you would have found that it is only rational and animal. You prefer to call it good rational and bad rational, but there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.
You say that you (or some in the future) will likely always smoke cigarettes. That behavior is never a part of the rational brain. It is an animal brain that likes it. Same with my gambling and all of the other addictions that people face.
Two Wolves Parable

The rational brain is a good wolf. The animal brain is the bad wolf. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by ringo, posted 03-17-2019 3:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2019 9:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 232 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6745
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 231 of 312 (849695)
03-18-2019 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
03-18-2019 7:15 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

The rational brain is a good wolf. The animal brain is the bad wolf. Comments?

It's better not to equate natural processes as good and bad; they're neutral. The 'animal brain' as you call it is actually the more primitive parts of our brain that mostly deal with survival and reproduction, breathing, sweating, feeling, seeing, hearing etc etc. It's not bad, it's essential to life.

The bits of the brain that makes us human are those responsible for executive functions - decision making, rational analysis, planning the future etc etc

Your executive functions regulate your desires and try prevent you doing things that feel good but might be bad for you or that are antisocial and destructive. They're developmental and need help to work.

https://developingchild.harvard.edu/...ts/executive-function


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-18-2019 7:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 232 of 312 (849697)
03-18-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
03-18-2019 7:15 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

If you bothered to read my link, you would have found that it is only rational and animal.


I know your link says that. I'm asking why you swallow it hook, line and sinker and consider everything else "nonsense".

Phat writes:

You prefer to call it good rational and bad rational...


Are you under the impression that rationality is 100% reliable and can never be misused?

Phat writes:

... but there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.


I'm talking about how we use rationality to respond to those situations.

Phat writes:

The rational brain is a good wolf. The animal brain is the bad wolf. Comments?


Good and bad are not black and white. There are a lot of gray wolves in between.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 03-18-2019 7:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 233 of 312 (849796)
03-21-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
12-12-2014 11:26 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

If you bothered to read my link, you would have found that it is only rational and animal.


ringo writes:

I know your link says that. I'm asking why you swallow it hook, line and sinker and consider everything else "nonsense".

The science makes sense. My rational mind knows what rational things I should do. Cigarette smoking is not rational. Nor is excessive drinking. My rational mind knows these things. Even drinkers who have no problem know their limits and the rationally minded ones never get too drunk.
ringo writes:

Are you under the impression that rationality is 100% reliable and can never be misused?

Not quite. I believe that rationality is a learning process. Again, there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.
ringo writes:

I'm talking about how we use rationality to respond to those situations.

I am as well. Remember a couple of years ago when you said this:
ringo writes:

Q Do you suffer from addiction?
A: No. I enjoy it.

I've heard addiction defined as a behavior that affects every area of your life - work, home, etc. If you can hold a job and maintain reasonably peaceful interpersonal relationships, I don't much care what bad habits you have.

The issue is not that you care what bad habits I have. The issue is whether your rational mind recognizes your own bad habits and informs you when you've gone too far. The RR people would argue that we talk ourselves out of rationality at times.

ringo writes:

Good and bad are not black and white. There are a lot of gray wolves in between.

Some of whom you keep out in the yard, while others you let into the house.

Choose your addictions wisely.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by ringo, posted 12-12-2014 11:26 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by AZPaul3, posted 03-21-2019 3:25 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 11:41 AM Phat has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 234 of 312 (849798)
03-21-2019 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
03-21-2019 2:54 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Again, there is nothing rational about being driven by emotions and hunger if they, in fact, are bad for you.

Rational or not we are all driven by emotions, hunger, etc. Look at your ape evolution. The "rational" part comes in when trying to control what is irrevocably already there ... the animal. The "rational" part comes in channeling and enjoying the animal, good and bad.

Some of whom you keep out in the yard, while others you let into the house.
Choose your addictions wisely.

We got some smart apes around here.

Nice image, too. Very good, Phat.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 03-21-2019 2:54 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 235 of 312 (849816)
03-22-2019 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
03-21-2019 2:54 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

Cigarette smoking is not rational. Nor is excessive drinking. My rational mind knows these things. Even drinkers who have no problem know their limits and the rationally minded ones never get too drunk.


And yet people do smoke and drink too much. Their rational minds know it isn't good for them but they do it anyway. Often they even use their rational minds to rationalize their irrational behaviour.

Phat writes:

I believe that rationality is a learning process.


In the case of addiction, I don't think so.

Phat writes:

The issue is whether your rational mind recognizes your own bad habits and informs you when you've gone too far.


And then you smoke or drink or gamble anyway.

Phat writes:

The RR people would argue that we talk ourselves out of rationality at times.


That's what I'm saying. Why is it "nonsense" when I say it?

Phat writes:

Choose your addictions wisely.


If we could choose our addictions, they wouldn't be addictions.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Phat, posted 03-21-2019 2:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 11:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 236 of 312 (849817)
03-22-2019 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
03-22-2019 11:41 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

My rational mind knows these things.


ringo writes:

And yet people do smoke and drink too much. Their rational minds know it isn't good for them but they do it anyway. Often they even use their rational minds to rationalize their irrational behaviour.

Thats what is called the Addictive Voice. I believe that rationality is a learning process.
ringo writes:

In the case of addiction, I don't think so.

Yes. Addiction is a brain disease. The prefrontal lobe heats up and numerous changes happen to the brain which locks a susceptible individual into an addiction. Thus, a large part of the "problem" is physical. RR and Jack Trimpey argue that much of the problem is mental as well. The animal brain, known in parlance as "The Beast" is the voice that cons yourself into allowing yourself to overindulge.
The issue is whether your rational mind recognizes your own bad habits and informs you when you've gone too far.
ringo writes:

And then you smoke or drink or gamble anyway.

Yes. It has happened. But it does not always happen, especially when I am paying attention and am mindful and aware of my feelings vs my actions.
That's what I'm saying. Why is it "nonsense" when I say it?
Because you always like to have the last word in an argument. Perhaps you become my rational voice and I become my own beast for a moment, summarily dismissing any and all of your claims. I feel offended at times that you try to win every argument. I believe. You don't. As for the "message", I suppose we can agree on that, but I'm not sure.
Phat writes:

Choose your addictions wisely.


ringo writes:

If we could choose our addictions, they wouldn't be addictions.

Perhaps you have a point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:07 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16358
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 237 of 312 (849820)
03-22-2019 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phat
03-22-2019 11:58 AM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
Phat writes:

The animal brain, known in parlance as "The Beast" is the voice that cons yourself into allowing yourself to overindulge.


I don't think that's true. "The voice" is a product of the rational mind. Especially in an addiction like gambling, it's the rational mind that tells us what we can do with our winnings. I don't think the "animal brain" can anticipate such things.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

That's what I'm saying. Why is it "nonsense" when I say it?


Because you always like to have the last word in an argument.

Non sequitur.

Phat writes:

I feel offended at times that you try to win every argument.


Would you feel better if I tried to lose? I could lose by going inactive like Faith. We could make EvC your personal blog where nobody ever disagrees with you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 9:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 238 of 312 (849832)
03-22-2019 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
03-22-2019 12:07 PM


Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
ringo writes:

I'd divide Rational into Good Rational and Bad Rational. Bad Rational says there "must" be something beyond the natural and it stretches the rational beyond its limits to try to prove it. Good Rational is skeptical of Bad Rational.

So are you essentially arguing that the neocortex is skeptical of the limbic system?

Phat in September 2018 writes:

As far as my basic diet goes, it is low carb all the way...but once stability has been achieved and blood sugars brought back under control, restrictions on carb intake can be relaxed. As a diabetic, I can't let carbohydrate addiction bring me down.
I weigh 230. My overall goal is mental...Psychiatrists tell me that I need to move from anxiety into awareness and from addictive behavior(self-medicating the anxiety) into positive action. Again, the key word is balance and mindfulness. My overall goals are to simply become more aware of my responsibilities for my own personal health and the best methods for avoiding addictive behaviors in general.


Phat writes:

The animal brain, known in parlance as "The Beast" is the voice that cons yourself into allowing yourself to overindulge.

Today, March 22, 2019, I weigh roughly 220. (Plus or minus 3 lb) I plan on using my rational mind in this latest attempt to master my addictions.

ringo writes:

I don't think that's true. "The voice" is a product of the rational mind. Especially in an addiction like gambling, it's the rational mind that tells us what we can do with our winnings. I don't think the "animal brain" can anticipate such things.

I think that the rational mind is wise enough to know that there are no winnings. the rational mind allows itself to let the reptillian brain pleasure the body.
ringo writes:

Non sequitur.

Hmmmm...
non se·qui·tur
noun
a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

Not every conclusion nor action of a rational person (or otherwise) is logical. Some actions are emotional and downright reptillian. The key is to recognize this fact and to determine which brain it comes from. Obviously both function together.
Trimpey argues that the animal brain somehow tries to trick the rationale of the neocortex into overindulging itself.
quote:
Ever wonder why alcoholics and problem drinkers drink so much? It’s because alcohol produces in them a pleasure greater than all others — an unspoken pleasure far greater than the normal survival drives of sex, eating, family life, the desire to succeed in life, and physical safety. The resulting drive to repeat that pleasure is proportionately stronger than normal survival drives. Alcohol is a synthetic, man-made substance, among a group of synthetic drugs that produce pleasure greater than evolution has prepared us to manage, a disorienting pleasure that causes one's moral compass to point south toward death rather than toward true north and life. (...)Humans live by universal family values, such as these:
Honesty, integrity, personal responsibility, industriousness, love, affection, loyalty, self-discipline, compassion, cheer, generosity, and mutual respect
In addiction, these human traits are lost without being missed by the addict. Through human eyes, significant others see the addict's coarse, animal disposition and feel alienated from him/her.

ringo writes:

Would you feel better if I tried to lose? I could lose by going inactive like Faith. We could make EvC your personal blog where nobody ever disagrees with you.

Hey! not a bad idea! Except that nobody visits Faiths Blog and nobody would visit mine either.

  • Can someone live a life of balance? Can one drink rationally?
    Obviously the answer is yes, because many do. Not everything is black and white, as ringo pointed out. I would argue, however, that for someone caught in the throes of an addiction, the issue is very much black and white. The brain pattern is abberent. The behavior is unproductive. The issue becomes life or death.
  • Must I stop __________ forever? RR argues that when one honestly asks themselves this question, they become in effect double-minded if they are an addict. The rational mind rejoices at the simple decision. The other voice, feeling, reaction, beast, demon, or whatever...recoils at the prospect. Thus the double mindedness is confirmed.
  • Can double mindedness be cured?
    What does everyone think?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by ringo, posted 03-22-2019 12:07 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by ringo, posted 03-23-2019 12:00 PM Phat has responded

      
  • ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16358
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 239 of 312 (849853)
    03-23-2019 12:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 238 by Phat
    03-22-2019 9:08 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    Phat writes:

    the rational mind allows itself to let the reptillian brain pleasure the body.


    That's exactly my point. The rational mind is on both sides.

    Phat writes:

    ringo writes:

    Non sequitur.


    Not every conclusion nor action of a rational person (or otherwise) is logical. Some actions are emotional and downright reptillian. The key is to recognize this fact and to determine which brain it comes from. Obviously both function together.

    That's not a reply to what you quoted.

    Phat writes:

    I would argue, however, that for someone caught in the throes of an addiction, the issue is very much black and white. The brain pattern is abberent. The behavior is unproductive. The issue becomes life or death.


    We're not talking about the addict's perspective. We're looking at it from outside.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 238 by Phat, posted 03-22-2019 9:08 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by Phat, posted 03-23-2019 3:40 PM ringo has responded
     Message 241 by Phat, posted 03-23-2019 3:48 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12254
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 240 of 312 (849863)
    03-23-2019 3:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
    03-23-2019 12:00 PM


    Re: The Science and Theory of Addiction
    ringo writes:

    That's exactly my point. The rational mind is on both sides.

    Perhaps. Perhaps not.

    Rom 7:13-25 writes:


    Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

    21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, with the mind, I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. NKJV

    Allow me to translate that into RATIONAL RECOVERY Speak.
    Rom 7:13-25
    Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But (reptilian brain) that it might appear carnal and addicted, was producing death in me through what is good,(distinguishing itself as the rational mind) so that pleasure through the commandment might become exceedingly tempting.. 14 For we know that the law(Rational Mind) is spiritual, but it is carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that it does not practice; but what I hate, that it does.. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the rational mind that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but (tghe reptilian brain) that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in my flesh nothing good dwells; for to will (to be rational and wise) is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, It does not do; but the evil I will not to do, that It practices. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but the reptilian brain that dwells in me.

    21 I find then a law, that evil (carnality and desire) is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.(Rational Conscience) 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.(If I allow it) 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, with the rational mind I myself serve the law of the message, but with the flesh the law of sin.
    NKJV

    See how that works? Whenever anyone says that "the devil made me do it" they really mean to say that they themselves allowed the reptillian brain to override the rational mind.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by ringo, posted 03-23-2019 12:00 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 242 by ringo, posted 03-24-2019 2:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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