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Author Topic:   Addiction By Definition
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 256 of 330 (849967)
03-27-2019 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
03-27-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
Um...god is supposed to be all knowing - what's with this committee majority shit?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 03-27-2019 3:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 2:23 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 03-28-2019 11:41 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12810
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 257 of 330 (849979)
03-28-2019 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
03-27-2019 5:21 PM


Re: Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
Perhaps only a religious addict would claim to knowhow God is supposed to be.
A better question is whether a Creator Of All Seen & Unseen can be thought of the rational mind without evidence. Pros & Cons?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2019 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2019 4:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 258 of 330 (849982)
03-28-2019 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Thugpreacha
03-28-2019 2:23 AM


Re: Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
Phat writes:

A better question is whether a Creator Of All Seen & Unseen can be thought of the rational mind without evidence. Pros & Cons?

There is no such thing as the rational mind - it's a metaphor. 'A creator' can be thought of by a brain in a rational (evidence based) or irrational (belief based) way or a mixture of both.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 2:23 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 10:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12810
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 259 of 330 (850005)
03-28-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Tangle
03-28-2019 4:31 AM


Addicted To Jesus
  • Can Belief be rational if unevidenced?

    I believe so. Others would disagree. Which then leads down several rabbit trails.

  • Am I addicted to religion?

    ENJOY

    Edited by Phat, : subtitle


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 258 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2019 4:31 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 261 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2019 11:23 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
     Message 263 by ringo, posted 03-28-2019 11:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Porkncheese
    Member (Idle past 78 days)
    Posts: 123
    Joined: 08-25-2017


    (1)
    Message 260 of 330 (850006)
    03-28-2019 11:06 AM


    Are you guys talking about this?
    A simplified version of Sigmund Freud's iceberg of consciousness

    I've recently become aware of at least a part of my sub conscious or alter ego.
    From what I understand the alter ego is located at the back of our brains, the cerebellum.
    Its our instinctive minds.

    Our counscious minds are located in our pre-frontal cortex. The matter in our foreheads is what sets us apart from a chimp.

    This is an over simplified illustration.

    As we get older our alter egos get hardwired to do certain things automatically such as ride a bike.
    Problem with drugs is that it tricks the mind into thinking its great by releasing all these feel good chemicals like oxytocine, seratonin and dopamine. Over time the brain treats the drug like its food, a necessity.

    I came across an intersting article a while ago that illustrates the difference between knowleadge and understanding.
    A guy reassemled a push bike so that it turned right when you turned the handlebars left and vice versa.

    He found that despite knowing the bikes configuration and what had to be done to ride it, no one could ride it more than 2 meters.
    Our subconscious has the muscle memory to automatically stay balanced and ride a normal bike.

    He decided to see how hard it would be to rewire his cerebellum.
    "He practiced riding the backwards bike every day for months. Trying and failing over and over again.
    Finally, after 8 month of slow progress, it finally clicked"

    I find it interesting how he describes it as finally clicking after 8 months of little progression.
    Its a kind of sudden realisation which is what i usually get when thinking about philosophy anf psycology as opposed to the steady progress of learning motion physics or calculus.

    https://betterhumans.coach.me/...-understanding-282f8a99b1a7

    Our sub conscious minds sets us apart from the apes. The largest chimp troupes are only 150 chimps.
    The Homo Sapien knew that in order to create civilization, religion needed to be created to form a moral basis of ethics for society to adhere to.

    Without it we would be savage cannibals focused only on survival and procreation just like the chimps.

    Anyways... Cheerio

    Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.

    Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.


        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7068
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 261 of 330 (850007)
    03-28-2019 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 259 by Thugpreacha
    03-28-2019 10:46 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    Phat writes:

    Can Belief be rational if unevidenced?

    As a general principle, belief in something for which there is no evidence can not ever be rational.

    But it gets blurred when you start talking about it philosophically. I think it's possible to have a rational belief in a non-interventionist, non-theistic god so long as you've gone through the various logical positions and formed a conclusion based on them.

    I don't believe that belief in a theistic god is ever rational nor do I think that anybody arrives at their beliefs via a rational process so it's of accademic interest anyway.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 10:46 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 267 by Porkncheese, posted 03-30-2019 8:35 AM Tangle has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 262 of 330 (850008)
    03-28-2019 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 256 by Tangle
    03-27-2019 5:21 PM


    Re: Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
    Tangle writes:

    Um...god is supposed to be all knowing - what's with this committee majority shit?


    The "all-knowing" bit is mostly made up by apologists, etc. The Old Testament doesn't portray God that way.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 256 by Tangle, posted 03-27-2019 5:21 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 264 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2019 11:49 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 263 of 330 (850009)
    03-28-2019 11:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 259 by Thugpreacha
    03-28-2019 10:46 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    Phat writes:

    Can Belief be rational if unevidenced?


    What does a rational mind work with if not evidence?

    Sure, you can rationally make up a fictional story based on "fictional evidence" - but unless you can demonstrate that your "evidence" is not fictional, you can not pretend that your story is not fictional.


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 259 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 10:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 265 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 1:59 PM ringo has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7068
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 264 of 330 (850010)
    03-28-2019 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 262 by ringo
    03-28-2019 11:41 AM


    Re: Rational Mind vs Irrational Intrusive and Primitive Thoughts
    If he ain't all knowing, all powerful, all loving and all over the place he ain't the god I was taught about. But sure, it's all made up anyway so why not have a committee. No problem.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 262 by ringo, posted 03-28-2019 11:41 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12810
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 265 of 330 (850020)
    03-28-2019 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 263 by ringo
    03-28-2019 11:46 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    This one is for you, ringo.

    Consider in what context each book is read, however. The Bible never became a bestseller because of its thrilling stories. There are literally thousands of stories, legends, and adventures more exciting and compelling.
    The Bible likely became a bestseller because many were ordered to distribute. One could argue that such behavior as mass distribution equated to propaganda. We certainly accuse the Mormons of doing the same.

    I bought Spiderman to read when I was ten for 25 cents at the drug store. I never planned on doing anything but making believe that I was him. (sometimes I wanted to be Superman instead.) One could argue that comic books have their own symptoms of addiction. If one took the time to study the patterns of each, there would be a differing correlation.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 263 by ringo, posted 03-28-2019 11:46 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 266 by ringo, posted 03-29-2019 11:52 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    (1)
    Message 266 of 330 (850040)
    03-29-2019 11:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 265 by Thugpreacha
    03-28-2019 1:59 PM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    Phat writes:

    Consider in what context each book is read, however.


    I think the significant factor is that the Bible often isn't read. People like Faith, for example, only memorize what they are told it says. The story of the snake "lying" and mankind "falling" is an excellent example of something that is definitely not in the Bible.

    Owned-but-not-read is considerably different from the way comic books are passed around to be read by many people each.

    Phat writes:

    I bought Spiderman to read when I was ten for 25 cents at the drug store. I never planned on doing anything but making believe that I was him. (sometimes I wanted to be Superman instead.)


    I bought the Classics Illustrated comic book of Mutiny on the Bounty. I can't say I ever wanted to be Fletcher Christian (but you can probably picture me as a mutineer).

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-28-2019 1:59 PM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 268 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-30-2019 8:56 AM ringo has responded

      
    Porkncheese
    Member (Idle past 78 days)
    Posts: 123
    Joined: 08-25-2017


    (1)
    Message 267 of 330 (850063)
    03-30-2019 8:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 261 by Tangle
    03-28-2019 11:23 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    tangle writes:

    As a general principle, belief in something for which there is no evidence can not ever be rational.

    I was always told it was based on faith. So I agree, both theists and atheists are irrational.
    Seeing 95% of theoretical scientists begin with the theist question of God (which everyone agrees doesn't belong in science).
    And so take on the position of atheist as the basis of their studies its fair to say the theoretical science is irrational.
    Well thought out Tangle. I can confirm your conclusion with the simple fact that rational questioning is always blocked.

    tangle writes:

    non-interventionist god

    Is that like a deist?

    tangle writes:

    non-theistic god

    Can u please explain this further cos I couldn't find any kind of definition of it.
    Theist is defined as "a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods" so i don't understand how a non-theistic god is even possible.

    Im not even sure how to define what I think now. Maybe still just agnostic seeing i have no problem admitting I don't know.
    But I actually now think there is a high probability that there is some kind of God that is undefinable to us. Nothing more.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by Tangle, posted 03-28-2019 11:23 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 270 by Tangle, posted 03-30-2019 1:52 PM Porkncheese has responded

        
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12810
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 268 of 330 (850065)
    03-30-2019 8:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
    03-29-2019 11:52 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    ringo writes:

    The story of the snake "lying" and mankind "falling" is an excellent example of something that is definitely not in the Bible.

    We have discussed this rather common alternate belief before.
    Upon researching the two subtopics, I found this:

    Did The Snake Tell The Truth?
    But The Snake Told The Truth! How & Why Did A Snake Have The Ability To Talk?

    THE SERPENT’S LIE

    Did Mankind "Fall"?

    Wiki writes:

    The fall of man, or the fall, is a term used in Christianity to describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience. Although not named in the Bible, the doctrine of the fall comes from a biblical interpretation of Genesis chapter 3.

    So why do the apologists all lie and why do Ringo and company tell the truth? Sounds like the snake to me.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 266 by ringo, posted 03-29-2019 11:52 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 269 by ringo, posted 03-30-2019 11:41 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17297
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 269 of 330 (850071)
    03-30-2019 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 268 by Thugpreacha
    03-30-2019 8:56 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    Phat writes:

    So why do the apologists all lie and why do Ringo and company tell the truth?


    It's what the Bible says.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 268 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-30-2019 8:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 271 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-31-2019 1:07 AM ringo has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7068
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.5


    Message 270 of 330 (850076)
    03-30-2019 1:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 267 by Porkncheese
    03-30-2019 8:35 AM


    Re: Addicted To Jesus
    P&C writes:

    I was always told it was based on faith. So I agree, both theists and atheists are irrational.

    Theists and atheists can be both rational and irrational. It's belief in a god without evidence - faith - which is the irrational position.

    Seeing 95% of theoretical scientists begin with the theist question of God (which everyone agrees doesn't belong in science).
    And so take on the position of atheist as the basis of their studies its fair to say the theoretical science is irrational.

    That's just gobbledegook. What do you think you mean? Are you saying that because science concerns itself with objective, fact-based, analysis of the natural word that it is atheistic? And 'therefore' irrational? If so, it doesn't make logical sense.

    Well thought out Tangle. I can confirm your conclusion with the simple fact that rational questioning is always blocked.

    Try not to be childish.

    Is that like a deist?

    It's a god that does not intervene in human affairs.

    non-theistic god
    Can u please explain this further cos I couldn't find any kind of definition of it.

    quote:
    theism
    /ˈθiːɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
    "there are many different forms of theism"

    Basically a religion.

    Im not even sure how to define what I think now. Maybe still just agnostic seeing i have no problem admitting I don't know.
    But I actually now think there is a high probability that there is some kind of God that is undefinable to us. Nothing more.

    Nobody knows. Atheists don't know either. There's nothing special about not knowing. But belief is a binary, positive thing - you either have it or you don't. If you don't have that belief, then you're an atheist. Atheism just means lacking belief in god(s).


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 267 by Porkncheese, posted 03-30-2019 8:35 AM Porkncheese has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 275 by Porkncheese, posted 04-03-2019 10:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded

      
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