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Author Topic:   Darwin and responsibilty
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 76 (111457)
05-29-2004 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by almeyda
05-29-2004 1:36 AM


Joshua chapter 6 is about the destruction of Jericho. Verse 21:
Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.
Chapter 7 tells the sad story of Achan. The loot was supposed to be devoted to God's temple, but Achan took some of it. In response, God punished the entire nation of Israel. When, by lots, they discovered that Achan was the culprit, they killed the entire family. Verses 24-26:
Then Joshua and all Israel with him took Achan son of Zerah, with the silver, the mantle, and the bar of gold, with his sons and daughters, with his oxen, donkeys, and sheep, and his tent and all that he had; and they brought them up to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why did you bring trouble on us? The LORD is bringing trouble on you today." And all Israel stoned him to death; they burned them with fire, cast stones on them, and raised over him a great heap of stones that remains to this day.
In chapter 8 the city of Ai is finally taken and destroyed. Again, all the inhabitants are killed. Verses 25, 26:
The total of those who fell that day, both men and women, was twelve thousand--all the people of Ai. For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the sword, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
All verses quoted are from the New Revised Standard Version.
Edited to correct a typo.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 05-29-2004 11:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 32 of 76 (111564)
05-30-2004 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-26-2004 8:25 PM


The relationship of Darwinism to social darwinism is real, and recorded by many mainstream historians, including historians who are evolutionists.
- some of the most influential Darwinist scientists such as Konrad Lorenz, Ernst Haeckel, Charles Darwin, Francis Galton, mixed social Darwinism into their work, and advocated some form of social darwinism in their works.
- since it's conception natural selection theory has been questioned, and continues to be questioned by many reputable scientists / philosphers, on grounds of simple errors, prejudices, and valuejudgement inherent in various formulations of the theory. (the groupselective racial theories for instance) You can assert that natural selection is just knowledge and doesn't suffer from any of these errors, but it would be mistaken to define natural selection as not containing any of these errors.
It would be a very bad mistake after the experience we had of a very well respected Darwinist pseudoscientist such as Heackel declaring to have put "the jewish question" on the political agenda, to once again simply assume that what is asserted as science is free of error and valuejudgement.
What falls under the personal responsibility of Darwin are some questions about scientific rigour in formulating and expressing his theory, and really very farreaching judgementalism / moral theory in some of his work. (talking about what the highest state of morality is, talking about the "fall of man" as described by evolutionary theory, opinionating that people inferior should not marry, talking about colonization in terms of natural selection, etc. )
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 5:51 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 33 of 76 (111592)
05-30-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Syamsu
05-30-2004 12:40 PM


Simple question
Have you actually read "On the Origin of Species"? Your post certainly suggests you have, so I would be grateful if you could direct me to the specific page numbers where he makes statements on
what the highest state of morality is, talking about the "fall of man" as described by evolutionary theory, opinionating that people inferior should not marry, talking about colonization in terms of natural selection, etc.
Please could you supply information on the edition and date of publication of the version you are reading.
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Syamsu, posted 05-30-2004 12:40 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 05-30-2004 5:56 PM Trixie has replied
 Message 40 by Syamsu, posted 05-31-2004 12:47 AM Trixie has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 76 (111594)
05-30-2004 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Trixie
05-30-2004 5:51 PM


Re: Simple question
To make it easier of Syamsu, here is an online version of The Origin of Species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 5:51 PM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:04 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 35 of 76 (111597)
05-30-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Chiroptera
05-30-2004 5:56 PM


Re: Simple question
The reason I'm asking is that I've just ploughed through the whole damned thing and haven't come across anything which can be said to resemble what Syamsu describes. So, either my edition is edited to remove these references, or they aren't there in the first place and it's dodgy interpretation that's the culprit.
I'm not too keen on struggling through the on-line version to see if there are differences between it and mine. Imagine how I would feel at the end if I DIDN'T find any differences Also, I only managed to get through the whole tedious lot of it by hiding all my other books and having nothing else to read at bedtime - I'd need to print out the on-line version to do the same thing. I think I'd lose heart about a tenth of the way through!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Chiroptera, posted 05-30-2004 5:56 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 6:08 PM Trixie has replied
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 05-30-2004 6:57 PM Trixie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 76 (111598)
05-30-2004 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Trixie
05-30-2004 6:04 PM


Re: Simple question
Easy solution. Download to your computer and grep for key strings. Cgrep might be even better or even sed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:19 PM jar has replied

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 3706 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 37 of 76 (111601)
05-30-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-30-2004 6:08 PM


Re: Simple question
Why are you talking to me in Swahili??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 6:08 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 05-30-2004 6:28 PM Trixie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 76 (111602)
05-30-2004 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Trixie
05-30-2004 6:19 PM


Re: Simple question
Trixie, Trixie, Trixie. We have got to drag you into at least this Century, well, maybe the end of the last one would do.
Everyone knows that grep is a general regular expression printer while crgep is a context sensitive version of grep. And then sed is simply a stream editor. One of the reasons why Unix is so easy to learn is that the commands all reflect the function they perform except awk which everyone knows was named after Aho, Weinberg and Kernighan and so is patently obvious and dd which should have been cc except that cc was already used and why isn't there an E on creat?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 76 (111611)
05-30-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Trixie
05-30-2004 6:04 PM


Re: Simple question
Hello, Trixie.
In the on-line version to which I linked, each chapter is on a single web-page. So you can search chapter-by-chapter (which is what I did once; there was a debate on another board about when the word "evolutionist" first came up - it turns out Darwin himself used the word!). Most web-browser then have a "search" feature that will allow you to search for words and phrases in the page that is up. I'm using Mozilla (for OS X), and the search is "Find in the page" (and other variations) under the Edit menu.
But scientific hypothesis is: "creationists make stuff up."
Scientific prediction: Syamsu's claims will not be found in Origin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:04 PM Trixie has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 40 of 76 (111693)
05-31-2004 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Trixie
05-30-2004 5:51 PM


Re: Simple question
The social darwinism more comes into play when Darwin discusses his theory in relation to human beings in "Descent of Man". You can find the moral theory I talked about in Descent of Man".
Looking at the posts in this thread, it seems that all the standards of science are out the window when discussing a subject of history, or social science. The subject how Darwinism influenced intellectual climate of opinion.
Hitler appears to have been a Christian of Jesus is greatest as a figher (against the Jews) in stead of greatest as a sufferer kind. His main belief appears to have been anti-semitism, and all his other beliefs subordinate and adapted to this anti-semitism. The main workingbeliefs of the Nazi's appear to have been social darwinism mixed into volkish philosophy, with a decidedly pseudoscientific bent:
(K. Fischer, Nazi Germany: A New History)
"The message embodied
in these doctrines was unmistakable: any living organism is engaged in
a ceaseless struggle for existence and is doomed to extinction if it
does not fight. Nations, like individuals, are also engaged in a
ceaseless conflict in which only the fittest can hope to survive. The
fighting quality of a nation depends upon its racial purity and its
ability to breed the fittest specimens in the form of productive
workers, savage fighters, and charismatic leaders. Those who defile a
race of people Jews, Gypsies, Asiatic inferiors must be eliminated
through appropriate state measures. Of all the human racial stocks,
the Aryan race clearly represents the apex of human achievement; and
since Germany is the homeland of the Aryan race, the German people are
charged with a sacred mission to propagate the Aryan race and dominate
the world. Racial mongrelization, however, has gone so far that the
hour may be late indeed. Only state intervention can protect the Aryan
race from further infections by inferior races. In 1913 Eugen Fischer
boldly prophesied "with absolute certainty" that all Europeans would
become extinct unless governments, especially the German government,
developed and implemented a coherent racial policy. Adolf Hitler
provided that policy."
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 76 (111858)
05-31-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Syamsu
05-31-2004 12:47 AM


Re: Simple question
Oh, good! I just read Descent of Man a couple of months ago, so it is somewhat fresh in my mind. Here, again, is an on-line copy of it, suitable for finding quotes and checking context.

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 Message 40 by Syamsu, posted 05-31-2004 12:47 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 05-31-2004 8:34 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 42 of 76 (111926)
05-31-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Chiroptera
05-31-2004 3:06 PM


Re: Simple question
Chioptera
Do you suppose Syamsu would be willing to show where social darwinism is discussed in the online version?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Chiroptera, posted 05-31-2004 3:06 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Chiroptera, posted 05-31-2004 8:51 PM sidelined has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 76 (111930)
05-31-2004 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by sidelined
05-31-2004 8:34 PM


Re: Simple question
Each chapter is reprinted in its entirety onto a single web page. Therefore it would be quite easy to use the seach function in your browser to look for key words or phrases. My guess is that Syamsu is using a very, very old browser without search functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 05-31-2004 8:34 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Syamsu, posted 06-01-2004 8:44 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 44 of 76 (112005)
06-01-2004 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Chiroptera
05-31-2004 8:51 PM


Re: Simple question
About the fall of man, Darwin referencing someone writing in the newspaper.
"A writer in the Spectator (March 12, 1871, p. 320) comments as follows on this passage:- "Mr. Darwin finds himself compelled to reintroduce a new doctrine of the fall of man. He shews that the instincts of the higher animals are far nobler than the habits of savage races of men, and he finds himself, therefore, compelled to re-introduce,- in a form of the substantial orthodoxy of which he appears to be quite unconscious,- and to introduce as a scientific hypothesis the doctrine that man's gain of knowledge was the cause of a temporary but long-enduring moral deterioration as indicated by the many foul customs, especially as to marriage, of savage tribes. What does the Jewish tradition of the moral degeneration of man through his snatching at a knowledge forbidden him by his highest instinct assert beyond this?"
You can find the rest of the quotes yourselves right? Right.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Chiroptera, posted 05-31-2004 8:51 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2004 12:11 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 76 (112053)
06-01-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Syamsu
06-01-2004 8:44 AM


Re: Simple question
How odd. I have provided links to the two most important works written by Darwin. Yet Syamsu continues to post quotations by third parties to indicate Darwin's beliefs. I'm confused Syamsu, what are we debating here? What Darwin believed, or what other people think Darwin believed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Syamsu, posted 06-01-2004 8:44 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Syamsu, posted 06-01-2004 12:34 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 47 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2004 1:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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