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Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Marxism vs Socialism vs Communism vs Totalitarianisms | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh but I do care about the wellbeing of Muslims and Socialists. Their wellbeing consists first of all in being set free from their false beliefs.
The Kibbutzim were not based on Marxism, they were a benign sort of socialism which does exist here and there. But obviously they served their purpose and Israel no longer needs them. I don't support "Capitalist Oligarchs" I've said that capitalism at certain levels needs to be restrained by law. I DID say that, perhaps you didn't notice. It remains gthe best economic system, but nothing's perfect on this planet, we do need laws to restrain the fallen nature. The problem with Marxism is its utter unreality, and its belief that you can tinker with the human heart to make it conform to some pieinthesky false idea of how to run things. Leave humanity alone and design your laws to keep the fallen nature in check. That's what the Constitution aimed at, but Marxism magnifies the fallen nature for its own chosen class and promotes the oppression and murder of all those who disagree with it. It's evil to the core.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I don't support "Capitalist Oligarchs" I've said that capitalism at certain levels needs to be restrained by law. I DID say that, perhaps you didn't notice. It remains gthe best economic system, but nothing's perfect on this planet, we do need laws to restrain the fallen nature. ... For the good of society ...
... It remains gthe best economic system, but nothing's perfect on this planet ... But there is no pure capitalist system operating in any nation. What you have is capitalism mixed with socialism in varying degrees.
... but nothing's perfect on this planet, we do need laws to restrain the fallen nature. ... Socialism.
The Kibbutzim were not based on Marxism, they were a benign sort of socialism which does exist here and there. But obviously they served their purpose and Israel no longer needs them. ... The problem with Marxism is its utter unreality, and its belief that you can tinker with the human heart to make it conform to some pieinthesky false idea of how to run things. ... Curiously Marxism is a theory that says the progression of society passes through (benign) cooperative socialism ... it is not that the Kibbutzim were based on Marxism but that his analysis of politics applied. He doesn't tinker he observes.
... Leave humanity alone and design your laws to keep the fallen nature in check. ... Social engineering, thinking you can tinker with the human heart to make it conform to some pie-in-the-sky false idea of how to run things.
... That's what the Constitution aimed at, ... Silly me, I thought the Constitution was aimed at providing a just and equitable society:
quote: ... but Marxism magnifies the fallen nature for its own chosen class and promotes the oppression and murder of all those who disagree with it. It's evil to the core. It would be interesting if you could actually quote Marx rather than froth at the mouth, but you are too indoctrinated in fear of Marxism for a rational discussion. Of course what you are talking about is Stalin rather than Marx. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : subtby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, but Stalinism is one of the inevitable outcomes of Marxism. The killing of your opponents, dissidents, etc., is the natural outcome of Marxism. Some have seen the connection and left the movement. The whole Marxist utopian nightmare should be scrapped.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Like the Spanish Inquisition is the inevitable outcome of Christianity?
I hold no brief for Marx, but he was a nice old geezer and would not have approved of Stalin any more than St Paul would have rooted for Torquemada.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm also sure Marx wouldn't have liked Stalin but that's because he believed his own utopian fantasy, just as RAZD does.
But the Inquisition was not the natural outgrowth of Christianity, but of the apostasy of papal Rome and its ambition to rule the world.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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No, but Stalinism is one of the inevitable outcomes of Marxism. ... Which is why it occurred in China ... oh wait that was Maoism ... Stalinism occurred because there was a vacuum in government once the Czars were deposed and he took the opportunity to take control, not to impose marxist theory but to impose a dictatorship that suppressed dissent ... killing off people that were a threat to his control. The problem with revolution is that an oppressive dictatorial system is most likely replaced by another oppressive dictatorial system because ... (a) that is what the people are used to (and accept as government) ... and (b) the new oppressors already know how it works.
... The killing of your opponents, dissidents, etc., is the natural outcome of ... revolution, as those hungry for power fight over the crumbs of government left in the vacuum created by revolution. The same pattern occurred in South America with military coup d'etats deposing a dictatorial leader and installing a new dictatorial leader. Violence begets violence. Out of interest to the argument you are attempting to make, who was more oppressive in Chile, Faith -- Marxist Allende or (US backed) Fascist Pinochet?
... The whole Marxist utopian nightmare should be scrapped. Curiously that won't make the progress of social forms as he analyses go away. Nor will that magically make capitalism any better. It will just come up again ... perhaps with a different name ... should we also say:
The whole Capitalist utopian nightmare should be scrapped. Or is the key be not relying on any one single form as an ultimate answer. Would you agree that changes need to be made as problems are encountered, so we should not be "wed" to any one system? Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 311 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
But the Inquisition was not the natural outgrowth of Christianity, but of the apostasy of papal Rome and its ambition to rule the world. Though as our resident Calvinist, you have to admit that that was completely inevitable ...
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fact that there are other evil governments and leaders has nothing to do with the fact that Marxism predictably tends in that direction.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Also prophesied...
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The fact that there are other evil governments and leaders has nothing to do with the fact that Marxism predictably tends in that direction. The fact that Allende's "marxist" government did not end in oppression of dissent etc as you claim is inevitable, while Pinochett's non-marxist government did end up with all the evils you claim for marxism, means that your hypothesis is rubbish, and you need to look for another explanation for the evil that explains the evidence. Let me summarize:
The alternative hypothesis is simple: violent revolution leaves a vacuum of government and a predisposition to violence, the most likely move for people seeking to take control of government will be continued violence as the crumbs of government are gathered, which they then solidify by murdering their competition, and then reinstating the oppressive government to squash dissent. It doesn't matter what the name is, what matters is the acts.
The fact that there are other evil governments and leaders has nothing to do with the fact that Marxism predictably tends in that direction. Let me correct that for you:
The fact that there are many evil governments and leaders has nothing to do with whether Marxism predictably tends in that direction or not. Oppressive governments cut across ideological ground. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Actually, the killing of your opponents is the natural outcome of capitalism. You know, that whole competition thing?
The killing of your opponents, dissidents, etc., is the natural outcome of Marxism.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Actually, the killing of your opponents is the natural outcome of capitalism. You know, that whole competition thing? Bullshit. You see Apple, IBM, General Motors field armies and shooting their competition?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Coyote writes:
I saw the British and French armies shooting each other for centuries in competition for world resources and markets.
You see Apple, IBM, General Motors field armies and shooting their competition?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I saw the British and French armies shooting each other for centuries in competition for world resources and markets. And the whole US war for oil program ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You see Apple, IBM, General Motors field armies and shooting their competition? How about we look at Walmart and what it does to competition from local companies? Stores close and average income becomes depressed, workers have to rely on social programs to make ends meet.
Unregulated capitalism inevitably leads to repressive social structures that are closer to feudal kingdoms than free societies. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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