Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 53 (9179 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Happy Birthday: Theodoric
Post Volume: Total: 918,137 Year: 5,394/9,624 Month: 419/323 Week: 59/204 Day: 1/34 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Atheists can't hold office in the USA?
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 777 (747858)
01-20-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
01-19-2015 1:30 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tangle writes:
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. A theist is someone who does believe in god. There is no room in the middle for 'I don't know'.
There are British subjects and there are people who are not British subjects - British and aBritish. There are people who understrand binary and people who don't understand binary - binarists and abinarists.
The two concepts are not directly related.
Your claim that there is nobody who doesn't understand binary is absurd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2015 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 3:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 777 (748047)
01-22-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Tangle
01-20-2015 3:12 PM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tangle writes:
That was pretty random.
Not at all. You're conflating things that are not related, knowledge and belief.
The fact is that everybody is agnostic on the subject of gods, no matter what they believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 01-20-2015 3:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 777 (748060)
01-22-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Tangle
01-22-2015 11:27 AM


Re: agnostic anyone?
Tangle writes:
... once he says he doesn't know, he also admits to not believing.
That doesn't make any sense at all. We only believe what we can not know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2015 11:27 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 198 of 777 (748401)
01-25-2015 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Tangle
01-24-2015 7:04 PM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
RAZD writes:
So now when I say "I don't know......."
... You don't believe.
I don't know whether Bigfoot exists. I believe it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2015 7:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 1:43 PM ringo has replied
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 5:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 200 of 777 (748404)
01-25-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Tangle
01-25-2015 1:43 PM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
If you don't know if you *believe* or not, then you don't believe.
That's like saying if you don't know if you have cancer or not then you don't have cancer.
You can believe you have cancer whether you do or not. You can believe you DON'T have cancer whether you do or not. At the moment, many of us don't KNOW whether we have cancer or not. We are agnostic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 1:43 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 2:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 218 of 777 (748461)
01-26-2015 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Tangle
01-25-2015 2:58 PM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
You're confusing knowledge with belief.
You're the one who's confusing knowledge with belief when you claim there's no such thing as an agnostic.
Tangle writes:
People know what they believe.
Do they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 2:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2015 11:04 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 219 of 777 (748464)
01-26-2015 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Tangle
01-25-2015 5:41 PM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
Sadly, Huxley, says youre not allowed to believe that.
Neither Huxley nor anybody else has the power to "allow" any such thing.
Tangle writes:
Luckily, and I'm sure you'll now agree, he's wrong.
You may believe that I'll agree, but you don't know whether I will or not. You're agnostic, whether you believe it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2015 5:41 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 222 of 777 (748470)
01-26-2015 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Tangle
01-26-2015 11:04 AM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
People are agnostic about knowledge, but not about belief.
If people ARE agnostic about knowledge, you can't say there's no such thing as an agnostic. That's all people are trying to tell you.
Being agnostic "about belief" is a nonsensical concept. Nobody is arguing that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2015 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2015 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 224 of 777 (748473)
01-26-2015 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Tangle
01-26-2015 11:23 AM


Re: agnostic anyone? when "don't know" is the logical answer.
Tangle writes:
But this is my entire point, which has gone flying over your - and others - heads. Belief and knowledge are not the same thing. You can be agnostic about knowledge - in fact you MUST be, but not belief.
You're arguing against a point that nobody is making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2015 11:23 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 258 of 777 (748696)
01-28-2015 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
01-28-2015 2:06 AM


Re: Example/variation on example
Phat writes:
I think im the last one...
Reminds me of The Little Engine That Could: "I think I am, I think I am."
Descartes thought he was a gnostic about thinking but he was really agnostic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Phat, posted 01-28-2015 2:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 777 (748789)
01-29-2015 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Stile
01-29-2015 12:28 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Stile writes:
One is external to your mind (could be either condition and you don't know). The other is internal to your mind...
Knowledge of the light in the room is external to your mind, i.e. objective; it can be confirmed by other observers.
Belief in gods is internal to you mind, i.e. subjective. How can you possibly know your own mind with perfect accuracy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Stile, posted 01-29-2015 12:28 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2015 12:40 PM ringo has replied
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 01-29-2015 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 284 of 777 (748858)
01-30-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Tangle
01-29-2015 12:40 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
Do you love your wife?
Most of the time.
Tangle writes:
Do you support the Jets?
What are the Jets?
Tangle writes:
Do you like cats?
Sometimes.
Tangle writes:
Do you want fries with that?
See, that's where your premise breaks down. A lot of people in a restaurant will look at the menu and say, "Hmmm.... What do I want?"
Tangle writes:
Do you believe in god?
I don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2015 12:40 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Jon, posted 01-30-2015 11:04 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 01-30-2015 1:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 285 of 777 (748859)
01-30-2015 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Stile
01-29-2015 1:17 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Stile writes:
Agnostic = "I don't know if I believe in God or not."
Atheist = "I do not believe in God."
I think the problem here is not that "agnostic" is a redundant term. It's that we don't have enough terms to describe the possible states:
"I believe in the God of the Bible."
"I believe in a god."
"I don't believe in any specific god(s)."
"I believe that no gods exist."
"I don't know what to believe."
etc.
Stile writes:
We're talking about being agnostic and not being an atheist at the same time.
That doesn't make any sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 01-29-2015 1:17 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 302 of 777 (748925)
01-31-2015 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Tangle
01-30-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Know Thyself
Tangle writes:
In any case, when you do, you do, when you don't you don't. There isn't a don't know.
Of course there's a don't know. It's always a don't know. Sometimes you're just a little more sure.
Tangle writes:
ringo writes:
What are the Jets?
It doesn't matter - if you don't know they exist, you can't believe it them.
So if I don't know God exists, I can't believe in Him? Would you care to think that through again?
Tangle writes:
Yup, but unless they say yes to fries, they don't get fries. they are afrieist.
That isn't the way it is with gods though. If they exist, you get 'em whether you want 'em or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Tangle, posted 01-30-2015 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 521 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 303 of 777 (748927)
01-31-2015 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by dwise1
01-30-2015 10:56 PM


Re: Know Thyself
dqise1 writes:
No, the reason why atheists cannot hold office in the USA is because of ... are you ready? ... what the voters think!
Democracy in action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by dwise1, posted 01-30-2015 10:56 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by dwise1, posted 02-02-2015 4:01 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024