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Author | Topic: Atheists can't hold office in the USA? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
This seemed relevant....
quote: Link This is the "'We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further" approach....... Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Are there any gods that you would describe yourself as an atheist with regard to?
What gods would you describe yourself as agnostic towards? What god(s) are you theistic towards? I think some examples might aid understanding here. But the point I was making previously was simply that what Tangle is saying is hardly new or some crazy revolutionary left field idea. The infamous quote about all children being born atheists was made in the 18th century for heavens sake. You may disagree. I may disagree. But you can't say that it is some new fangled idea. As for the elephant.... show me (or place my hands upon) god's metaphorical "trunk"/"leg"/"tail"/whatever. Without such it is a pointless analogy.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
In the context of the original question as to whether "Atheists" can hold office in the USA.
Would anyone who answers "No" to the question "Do you believe in God?" qualify as an "atheist". If so, whatever the more subtle nuances there may be, Tangle is correct in this context at least.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
cat Sci writes: I go to the theist triangle. Straggler goes to the atheist square. Well it depends what we are talking about. Are there any gods that you would describe yourself as an atheist with regard to? What gods would you describe yourself as agnostic towards? What god(s) are you theistic towards? I think some examples might aid understanding here. Because I think that as far as common usage is concerned most people would be happy to be described as 'atheists' towards Thor and Apollo and Zeus et al and that the "I go one god further" approach is perfectly valid in that context without any need to start blathering on about elephants.
CS writes: And of course, children are not-triangle. Obviously it depends how one defines the triangle/circle/square.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Don't forget our old friend ignosticism.
ignostic (plural ignostics) 1. one who holds to ignosticism.2. one who requires a definition of the term God or Gods as without sensible definition they find theism incoherent and thus non-cognitive. ignostic - Wiktionary But even as an ignostic the answer to the question "Do you believe in God?" is still strictly "No". As it is for anyone who isn't actually a believer. But - again - In the context of people being allowed to hold office all this is largely irrelevant. These stipulations weren't devised so that a bunch of navel gazing online debaters could wrangle over the nuances of atheism in it's different forms. They were simply put in place to ensure that godless heathens weren't allowed to hold positions of influence over the good God-fearing people of the blessed US of A.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
If you ask the question verbally it won't be possible for people to read too much into, and get hung up on, any capitalisation or the lack thereof.....
Hindus could answer "Yes. Lots of them". Thus obviously not qualifying as atheists.
dw writes: But to Christians, believing in another god is the same thing as believing in none? No. It obviously isn't atheism. Although I suspect people of other non-Christian faiths would in many cases face similar challenges to achieving the sort of public office under discussion as those of no faith. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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This is what is being referred to:
quote:
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Tan writes: If he believes in ONE he is not an atheist You have said "he". In the name of absolute clarity I must insist that you revise your comments to make clear that girls, ladies, women, transsexuals, hermaphrodites and anyone else of a gender that does not or may not qualify one as a "he" can also be an atheist if the person in question does not hold a belief in the existence of any God/god/gods/goD/GOD/GODs/GODS/gOd/gOdS/Gods/GoDs/etc. Furthermore can you please make it clear that a belief in the existence of dogs is perfectly acceptable
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Given that the British monarch rules by divine right (AKA By The Grace of God) proclaiming independence from said monarch is practically an act of atheism in and of itself.
The U.S. is hardly alone in proclaiming it's constitutional underpinnings as having Godly origins. But of course people pick and choose God's will to suit their own political ends....
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Tan writes: I don't know that there isn't an axe murderer waiting for me in my home. But you know what? I believe that there isn't so I'm going in anyway. Which would make you an a-axemurdererinmyhouse-ist as opposed to an axemurdererinmyhouse-ist. Where an axemurdererinmyhouse-ist is someone who does indeed believe that there is an axe murderer waiting for them in their home and the 'a' prefix denotes those that do not believe this, such as yourself. Without any basis for believing that there is an axe murderer waiting for them those who do believe this (i.e. the axemurdererinmyhouse-ists) are paranoid delusionists and those that don't (i.e. the a-axemurdererinmyhouse-ists) are just people going about their everyday lives unconcerned by such irrational nonsense. Now swap in the terms 'theist' and 'atheist' into the appropriate places and voila, all should become clear to those still struggling here.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Jon writes: But that is more a reflection of the need for such terminology vis--vis the frequency with which people discuss (and the importance they place on the topic of) god, God, GOD, gods, Gods, and GODs vs. the frequency with which they discuss (and the importance they place on the topic of) axe murderers, fairies, etc. I agree with you that the subjective importance people place on God is the basis for the special pleading in question. But special pleading it remains. Anyone who lacks the belief that there is an axe murderer waiting for them at home is an a-axemurdererinmyhouse-ist in exactly the same way that anyone who lacks a positive belief in any gods can accurately be described as an atheist. If one talks logically with all special pleading absented.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I guess the people who might care are those who are being denied access to certain positions within US society based on their lack of belief via terminology that embraces religionist special pleading.
More generally anyone attempting to make a logical argument about theism might object to being hampered by the use of terminology that incorporates special pleading at it's heart.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
You asked who cares. I provided an answer as to who might indeed care. Apparently you didn't like the answer provided. Ho hum.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Anyone who is required to justify their atheism but not their a-axemurdererinmyhouse-ism may care for reasons of pure logical consistency.
Anyone who wants to hold public office in the US who fears that being branded an atheist will be a barrier to that. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 94 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
EvC is full of instances where exactly that is requested.
And a more logical use of terminology, devoid of innate fallacies, may well lead to better logical arguments on the subject. One can only hope....
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