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Author | Topic: Atheists can't hold office in the USA? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I bumped into this by accident today and was, well, surprised
American states that have anti-atheist laws on their books. Arkansas, Article 19, Section 1:No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court. Maryland, Article 37:That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution. Mississippi, Article 14, Section 265:No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state. North Carolina, Article 6, Section 8The following persons shall be disqualified for office: Any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God. South Carolina, Article 17, Section 4:No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution. Tennessee, Article 9, Section 2:No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state. Texas, Article 1, Section 4:No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being. Apparently these state laws are trumped by the
No Religious Test Clause of the United States Constitution, which is found in Article VI, paragraph 3, and states that: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. But this doesn't prevent the bigots trying
Cecil Bothwell, an atheist who in 2009 won an election for a Asheville, North Carolina city council seat, was almost unseated by local critics who pointed to a provision in North Carolina’s constitution that prohibited nonbelievers from being elected. Why do these laws still exist in the US?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
But why isn't the very existance of those laws unconstitutional? Why aren't atheists campaigning to get them revoked
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
The story above seems to bely that - the guy got enough votes to get elected.
Cecil Bothwell, an atheist who in 2009 won an election for a Asheville, North Carolina city council seat, was almost unseated by local critics who pointed to a provision in North Carolina’s constitution that prohibited nonbelievers from being elected.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I still don't get how an unconstitutional law is still on the books in some states but not in others. Does this tell us something about those states?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Just random then? Nothing else in common?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Ouch, did that touch a nerve?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: Tangle has a history of making condescending statements of this type. While I don't share petro's level of irritation, I understand where it comes from. I don't believe that there is a single word in my question that could be honestly described as condescending. I was genuinely surprised to see that 7 states in the USA appeared to ban atheists from public office. As for my history, I'm also genuinely puzzled why a modern Western democracy, for which I have otherwise great respect, has such a high proportion of it's population holding primitive religious views (and such a destructive gun culture). It's a canundrum which, when pointed out by an outsider, gets these kind of reactions. Are Americans able to question these things themselves without being accused of being 'condescending' - or whatever - or is it just something that non-Amercans are not allowed to ask? Why so sensitive?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dr. A writes:
Well, in a sense they don't. When a law or part of a law is found to be unconstitutional, you don't have to recall all the statute books and tear out the offending pages; the law ceases to exist, qua law. The guy writing the article makes this point about it.
I think that the legislatures of these states have a duty to eventually get around to removing these provisions and any other elements of their state constitutions that institutionalize discrimination. Now might not be the time due to the large number of pressing issues that plague this nation, but the change ought to eventually be made. Atheists, or any other religious minority for that matter, shouldn’t have to go to court after winning an election just so that federal law is upheld and discrimination is rejected. Which seems fair. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Not really. Well I had to look it up but they're all southern bible belt states and mostly adjacent to each other. What they appear to have in common is that they answer the question "How important is religion in your life?" as very high. Mississippi answering at 82% for example. (wow!) So I guess that's why the laws haven't been repealed. It hasn't stopped other southern and only slightly less religious states not having the law anymore. e.g. Louisiana at 73%. So I guess it's possible. Religion in America: U.S. Religious Data, Demographics and Statistics | Pew Research CenterJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Well I had to look up the welshman thing and found these 'laws' also
STRANGE-BUT-TRUE LAWS It is legal for a male to urinate in public, as long it is on the rear wheel of his motor vehicle and his right hand is on the vehicle A bed may not be hung out of a window Taxi drivers are required to ask all passengers if they have smallpox or the plague Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI) Any boy under the age of 10 may not see a naked mannequin Throughout the whole of England it is illegal to eat mince pies on the 25th of December It is illegal to be drunk on licensed premises But they're just quaint antiquities. No-one in Chester would believe that it's ok to shoot a Welsman inside the city walls with a bow and arrow, whilst it seems that 80+% of Mississippi people perhaps might think that atheists should not be able to hold public office if asked becuase their religious beliefs are very important to them. It also seems to be the case that these anti-atheist laws are actually attempting to be used - they're not just part of ancient history - as in the example above. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
caffeine writes: As far as I can see, Louisiana is not a case of not having such a law 'any more' - they never did. Their constitution has been modified many times, so I might be missing it, but I can see no sign that religious belief was ever used to qualify for office. Things which have historically disqualified Louisianans from holding public office: Fair point. It was probably deemed as unnecessary a law preventing blind people driving buses. It sort of begs the question when those atheist laws were added and by whom.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
jar writes: The current Maryland Constitution was adopted in 1867. Only a few years after Darwin published Origin then.......Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.
My original questions have been answered, thank you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
The law isn't just instrumental, it also has a symbolic, signalling role. It says that this activity is something this society disapproves of to the extent that if you transgress it, the state will punish you. It creates our moral norms and signals an expectation of behaviour.
So to have have it still on the statute books, not simply as a bygone relic of how things used to be, but to be pulled out when it suits regardless of it's ineffectiveness, is a signal of a different kind is it not? However, I have no idea whether the example quoted is just a one-off or not and whether people in those states are generally aware of it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes:
No it is not. Care to say why. Otherwise I'm just going to counter with "oh yes it is"
But it is worth a chuckle or three on a really dull news day. Ok, we've had our little chuckle, perhaps you'd now care to explain your position.
But the answer to the topic is of course, "Nonsense, atheists can hold any political office in the US if they get elected." Yes, we've answered that - the constitution trumps state law. Gottit. It's posible for an atheist to hold public office in Mississippi if s/he can get enough votes. Fine. We've moved on from that. The question now is whether these redundant laws are still being waved around and having an effect. I've no idea, have you? Do you care?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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