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Author | Topic: Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There is nothing ****** about the electoral college system, it's the only thing that preserves the integrity of the individual states that we have left; otherwise the low population states would just be swallowed up completely in the federal behemoth. Curiously I agree on this. More to the point I think that we could use the electoral college to better effect if we made it illegal to release the state ballot results until it is done in the electoral college. This would take away the media circus election night and give reason for western states - especially Hawaii - people to vote, AND it would give states a chance to fix election fiascos (think Florida in 2000) by re-running their election ... and we could require a revote whenever the margin between the top two candidates was less than the number of other votes (either discarded\damaged or for a third party). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
When you go into the booth and vote for president you are, in actuality, voting for the slate of Electors pledged to vote for that candidate if elected to the Electoral College. In most states the majority popular vote will determine which slate of Electors will enter the Electoral College. ... Curiously the constitution (as currently amended) only requires that :
quote: Note that this part of the process takes place within each state, and what they provide is a list of the votes for all the candidates with the numbers of votes for each candidate -- ie first choice, second choice, third choice, etc. for the state as a whole. This does not require a media circus, nor does it require that the results be released at that time. It is at this point that any problems with the voting -- as occurred in Florida -- would become evidence. Also at this time it should become apparent whether or not there is a clear and unambiguous count of votes, where the margins between the top three candidates are greater than the number of bad ballots. There is no need for announcing any votes from any state at this time, just whether or not a clean and unambiguous vote had been tallied, and IF not, then there is time to have a run-off election between the top three candidates (see below - "... the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for ... "). Note that this withholding of results from the media is already done for absentee votes and for early votes (where those are allowed). You also have time to validate all votes, a process that should (imho) include a means for the people to validate that their votes have been properly counted, and corrections made where they aren't properly counted. Then you can proceed to the "electoral college" as required by the constitution(*):
quote: Note that at this point onward the presence of electors is not required, just the votes they have tallied, and that this could be interpreted to mean, or at least to allows, that the lists of votes are all counted as popular votes. Note also that there does not need to be a >50% majority in any state, just in the final tally of the "electoral college" joint session.
... In two states the slate of Electors may be split. The only way to determine which slate of electors will enter the college is by tallying the popular vote. You cannot have the Electoral College release the state voting result since the college has not yet been formed and cannot be formed until the results are released. That cannot be done in a media vacuum. The "electoral college" is not actually a thing required or established by the constitution. What is required is that the electors compile lists of votes and forward those to the president of the Senate, and that the votes are then opened and counted in a joint session of the House and Senate, and if all the votes tallied on the lists provided by the electors are counted then you have de facto a popular vote tally ... with no need for a constitutional amendment. This joint session would be the media circus event, not the all night circus we currently have. And if you start by counting the smallest states first, you can make as much drama out of this as you want. This can also be implemented state by state without affecting the outcome. What this does is utilize the existing constitutional provisions to provide a buffer period to properly count and validate votes, time within which a second election can be held if the first one is problematic, and it provides a path for all popular votes to be counted in the final tally. Now I also think that ALL ballots should be paper ballots, the same ballots that are used for absentee voting and early voting and the period of voting should be the same as for absentee and early voting (ie -- everyone votes by absentee ballot). And I would like to see ballots with first choice and second choice voting, including a "non-of-the-above" option. This too can be implemented state by state without affecting the outcome. Finally, as this is the "Awesome Primary Thread" I think that all primaries should be done with instant run-off ballots (ie - you vote for the order of the list of candidates by your preferences from best to worst). This too can be implemented state by state. By focusing on steps that can be taken state by state then we don't have to depend on congress fixing itself. These steps can also be promoted by voter initiatives in each state, bringing the process to the people. Enjoy______ * -- per Amendment 12 from this point to end of quotes. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
a fair counting of the popular vote and the inclusion of all voters in the process and reduction of voting machine fraud.
Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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This puts a lock on the state's electoral votes for the popular party of the time. It also creates roadblocks to national third-party organizations since the state's electoral votes are never split such that another party can gain any headway over time. There are plenty of people that would like to see third parties be viable on both ends of the spectrum, and developing a way to break the two party system would seem popular.
You will not get any of the state legislatures to change this. The popular party will never agree to give up their lock on the electors and neither party will do anything to invite viable competition from a national third party. This is where voter initiatives can be employed: take the vote to the people and let them decide, rather than the interested parties.
I'm not saying your outline is not effective. I'm saying it is not feasible. Progress is worth fighting for, especially when it means revising a broken system. From the Occupy Movement/s to the independent voters to the Tea Party Birchers people across the political spectrum do not like the two party system. And the only way to change the system is to change the system. Either by evolution to "form a better union" or by revolution to destroy the current one ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Two words: preferential voting. Indeed. Single person single vote is incapable of providing information on second and third choices etc, and when the field is packed with a number of candidates of varying quality it is possible to end up with a bad choice if several good choices split the other votes. Preferential voting - Wikipedia
quote: Of these I like "instant runoff" voting best - especially for primaries when there can be lots of candidates of many different levels of quality and a mix of positions.
If there is no majority, the person with the least votes is eliminated and has their voters first choices replaced by the voters second choices. If there is still no majority, the person with the least votes is also eliminated and has their voters first (or second) choices replaced by the voters second (or third) choices. etc Much more like getting a consensus of who would satisfy the most people than our current system that not only ensconces the two party system, but also tends to pick extreme candidates in each of the parties. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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For Presidency? ... Does this cause an issue?
quote: -Ted Cruz Wikipedia See The Brand New Birther Thread ...
For Presidency? ... Does this cause an issue? Only if he gets elected ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Back peddling is unnecessary when the electorate has an attention span and memory as short as a What was that? oh never mind. by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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I cannot agree with this sentiment. Isn't this supposed to be a something of a comedy thread? Are there any easier jokes to be made than those that result simply quoting something Sanctorum says? you mean like ...
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Curiously I find the current plethora of GOP candidates to be prime examples of the The Dunning—Kruger effect
quote: Of course that can be said for all politicians to some degree. It just seems to me that the GOP candidates are more incompetent in judging their own judgment than the average cow. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well he could play water polo too ...
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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we should all register as republicans to vote for Donald in the primaries.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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But a business man in the White House wouldn't be a bad thing. D.C. needs to quit spending more than it takes in. No. Business is the wrong model for government. Government is not there to make a profit or to benefit ceos and big corporations, and you can't fire people from being citizens. This is one of the big lies of the republican party, and why they ultimately are so bad at government. The purpose of government is to serve the people, to provide the most benefit to the most people -- that's in the preamble to the constitution -- tell me one business that operates that way. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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The top 1% of earners, incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented 16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. In the days of Eisenhower the top tax bracket was 90% and it was the time of the greatest prosperity in the US. Other nations have higher tax brackets AND higher social benefits and the average income of the citizens outranks the US
The top 1% of earners, incomes of $343,927 or greater, represented 16.9% of all income and paid 36.7% of all federal taxes. Their average tax rate was 24.01%. The top 0.1% who had incomes of $1,432,890 or greater represented 7.8% of all income and paid 17.11% of all taxes. Their average rate was 24.3%. Please provide sources for your numbers. Hopefully they are better vetted than your Jade Helm 15 source. Those who benefit most from the system should pay the most to keep it solvent.
If we take a closer look at the top 0.1% of earners, their average adjusted gross income in 2009 was $4.4 million and their average tax bill was $1.07 million. Included in this group were 137,982 tax returns. Their total tax bill was $147.6 billion. And should have been higher when you include all the money sequestered off-shore and not counted by loopholes. If we take a really good closer look we see that the "income" reported is a minor fraction of real income. Then there is corporate taxes and corporate "entitlements" that give back more to companies as "incentives to succeed" than they pay in taxes -- is that good business?
Third, if one raised the tax rate paid by these 137,982 tax payers to 30% (as is being proposed in the so-called Buffet rule), it would take over 43 years of collecting this additional tax revenue to just equal the Federal budget deficit for one year, 2011. (We have a huge spending problem.) Then stop spending money on wars and military. The US spends more than the top ten other countries on military expenditures. And stop giving money to big corporations. That's where the spending problem is, not with programs like Social Security that are paid for by the people outside the budget. Return the tax schedule to what it was under Eisenhower, and cut the loopholes for corporations, eliminate corporate entitlement programs, make taxes on stocks the same as other income, tax stock transactions. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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RAZD wrote: The purpose of government is to serve the people, to provide the most benefit to the most people
The purpose of government is to provide an environment that allows the people to prosper, to live comfortably, to seek and find happiness. It is NOT to provide ... the most benefit to the most people ... Do you think it should provide the most benefit to the smallest number of people? Indeed (as Dr A noted), the preamble of the Constitution (which I referenced) reads:
quote: Of the people by the people for the people, ergo government should provide the most benefit possible to the most people.
The purpose of government is to provide an environment that allows the people to prosper, to live comfortably, to seek and find happiness. ... For all to "to prosper, to live comfortably, to seek and find happiness" -- you will please note -- requires that you will need to provide the most benefit to the most people. You need to follow your thoughts to their logical conclusion. Taking the counter process -- providing the most benefit to those who need it least and restricting it to a small select elite does nothing for the general welfare but rather significantly impoverishes it. We KNOW that the trickle down myth is a failed concept, that not only is it wrong it is entirely backwards. The economy is made up of the movement of money, not by people having amounts of money in storage. The more money is in movement the better the economy. Give a poor person $100 and it is spent by the end of the week, all of it locally, but give a rich person $100 and half of it may be spent by the end of the year, maybe in the US, maybe somewhere else. We KNOW that the bank failure collapse happened because trickle-down did not happen -- for over 3 decades the people did not get the "promised raises" for decades, and instead had real wages fall, and could not afford to keep up their mortgages. IF trickle-down worked there would not have been the failure. When the failure happened it took just a couple of weeks ... because the economy trickles UP. You don't grow a large tree with small roots. The fact that GOP candidates still talk about trickle-down and tax breaks for the rich shows that they are either delusional or outright lying.
... But anything will be better than the last 7 years. ... You sound like a Fauxaholic. Do you mean the last 7 years where Obama spent a fraction of what Schrubbia spent? The 7 years where Obama brought the deficit down from the record height created by Scrubbia? In spite of dogged obstructionism at every step by the republicans? Those 7 years? I have to wonder what drugs you are on: please provide example of what Obama has done that was worse than Scrubbia.
... Putting someone in there who is NOT a politician might be just the thing to get things working again. ... But it isn't the politics that is the problem these days, it is the corruption of politics to pander to the rich and corporate interests over the interests of the people. You want someone who will stand up to that corruption, and somehow I don't see anyone connected to business doing that.
No amount of Tax payers, rich or middle income, can bail us out of the hole we're in unless we quit spending ... period. The hole we are in was caused by Schrubbia, who inherited a surplus from Clinton and then proceeded to give it away and go play war games. Any move in the direction of Scrubbia's disastrous policies will be worse than anything that has happened in the last 7 years. If you are truly concerned about the dept and the deficit then you need to look at WHO is causing WHAT effect on it -- not blame the last guy in office. Do some real research\investigation on what the sources are and what policies are responsible. Certainly don't expect the sources that gave you Jade Helm 15 information to provide you with accurate information on other matters. And be skeptical. Government is for the people, all the people ... with no prejudice and no favoritism -- and that is how you provide the most benefit to the most people. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : codeby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
see Message 5
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