Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread

From today's New York Times: From Vaccines to Creationism, Ben Carson’s Views Perplex Some: Interesting. He doesn't say they were 24-hour days. He won't agree there's evolution, but will agree that creatures can adapt to their environment.--Percy

I don't know why New Hampshire's presidential primary was left off Wikipedia's list, but we can vote in either primary. If you're already registered in the party you're voting for, then you just vote. If you're registered in the other party or as an independent then you register at the polls in the party whose candidates you want to choose among, and then you can vote. Then after the primaries you register back the way you were - they may do this for you automatically now.--Percy

Dr. A's post was a side-handed swipe at libertarianism, not a reference to a specific candidate.--Percy

i wonder if the name Hitler has the same menacing ring to millennials as it does to those of us born in the wake of WWII. Is he just another in a list of common bogeymen from the past like Jack the Ripper and Al Capone, or do they understand that this man was truly evil on an unheard of scale.I'm a WWII buff, and I recently began pondering the parallels of Trump's campaign for president with Hitler's rise to power. Both combine demagoguery and charisma with a populist's appeal. With Hitler's rise German democracy collapsed, and soon the lights began going out all over Europe. When it was over Europe lay in ruins and 60 million people were dead.Benito Mussolini, popularly known as Il Duce in his native Italy where he rose to power a decade before Hitler in Germany, was Hitler's partner in crime. A sort of poor man's Hitler in terms of barbarity and ruthlessness (he was a reluctant participant in Hitler's final solution), Trump recently tweeted a Mussolini quote, and a recent New York Times editorial chose Mussolini rather than Hitler for comparison. Trump's Il Duce Routine echoes many of my own troubled but nebulous thoughts, and states them much more clearly and succinctly. A few excerpts:

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Europe, the soil on which Fascism took root, is watching the rise of Donald Trump with dismay. Contempt for the excesses of America is a European reflex, but when the United States seems tempted by a latter-day Mussolini, smugness in London, Paris and Berlin gives way to alarm. Europe knows that democracies can collapse.
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It’s the echoes, now unmistakable, of times when the skies darkened. Europe knows how democracies collapse, after lost wars, in times of fear and anger and economic hardship, when the pouting demagogue appears with his pageantry and promises. America’s Weimar-lite democratic dysfunction is plain to see. A corrupted polity tends toward collapse.
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He has emerged from a political system corrupted by money, locked in an echo chamber of insults, reduced to the show business of an endless campaign, blocked by a kind of partisanship run amok...
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This disoriented America just might want Trump and that possibility should be taken very seriously, before it is too late, by every believer in American government of the people, by the people, for the people. The power of the Oval Office and the temperament of a bully make for an explosive combination, especially when he has shown contempt for the press, a taste for violence, a consistent inhumanity, a devouring ego and an above-the-law swagger.

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As Europe knows, democracies do die. Often, they are the midwives of their own demise. Once lost, the cost of recovery is high.

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Sidenote: No moderation has been necessary in this thread in a while, so I'm switching to a participant role.--Percy

That so many evangelicals are backing Trump, a lying, cheating, womanizing, unChristian bully, has been widely remarked upon as an unfathomable mystery, but the reason is plain as can be: many evangelicals are no more Christian in their hearts than is Trump. We see it here all the time, where in discussion the people least sympathetic, compassionate, tolerant and Christian are invariably evangelicals.So naturally I disagree with the reasoning of this New York Times editorialist in What Wouldn't Jesus Do?. He believes many evangelicals have placed earthly concerns above spiritual, but I doubt they had many spiritual concerns in the first place.--Percy

Oh, yes, very much.I've been wanting to write about the parallels of Trump with Hitler for a few days now. Looking it up over the weekend I was surprised to see that I'm way late to the party. Type "hitler trump" into Google, you'll get stories and images.--Percy

I *was* first to mention Hitler, but it was to express serious concerns about the similarities between Hitler's rise to power between the World Wars and Trump's campaign for the 2016 Republican nomination. The story is the same then and today: a dispirited and discouraged electorate seeks a return to former glories and finds refuge in the harangues of a self-serving, bullying demagogue with no conscience or compassion.--Percy

Hitler knew. From Wikipedia:

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The Holocaust (also known as the "Endlsung der Judenfrage" or "Final Solution of the Jewish Question") was ordered by Hitler and organised and executed by Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heydrich. The records of the Wannsee Conference, held on 20 January 1942 and led by Heydrich, with fifteen senior Nazi officials participating, provide the clearest evidence of systematic planning for the Holocaust. On 22 February, Hitler was recorded saying, "we shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jews". Although no direct order from Hitler authorising the mass killings has surfaced, his public speeches, orders to his generals, and the diaries of Nazi officials demonstrate that he conceived and authorised the extermination of European Jewry. He approved the Einsatzgruppen - killing squads that followed the German army through Poland, the Baltic, and the Soviet Union - and he was well informed about their activities.

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--Percy

This came across as excusing Hitler of responsibility for the Holocaust: If I've misinterpreted your words then I apologize, but in case anyone else misinterpreted them similarly I do think it important to be very clear, especially for millennials and anyone unfamiliar with the facts of the Holocaust. Hitler did order the extermination of the Jews, and he wouldn't have been appalled at any part of it. Himmler ran the concentration camps and reported directly to Hitler. From Wikipedia:

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Somewhere around the time of the German declaration of war on the United States in December 1941, Hitler finally resolved that the Jews of Europe were to be "exterminated". Heydrich [reported to Himmler] arranged a meeting, held on 20 January 1942 at Wannsee, a suburb of Berlin. Attended by top Nazi officials, it was used to outline the plans for the "final solution to the Jewish question". Heydrich detailed how those Jews able to work would be worked to death; those unable to work would be killed outright. Heydrich calculated the number of Jews to be killed at 11 million, and told the attendees that Hitler had placed Himmler in charge of the plan.
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On 4 October 1943, during a secret meeting with top SS officials in the city of Poznań (Posen), and on 6 October 1943, in a speech to the party elitethe Gau and Reich leadersHimmler referred explicitly to the "extermination" (German: Ausrottung) of the Jewish people. A translated excerpt from the speech of 4 October reads:

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I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish People. This is something that is easily said: 'The Jewish People will be exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in our program elimination of the Jews, extermination, a small matter.'
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Hitler's motivation for authorizing Himmler's speeches was to ensure that all party leaders were made aware of these plans and actions. Thus, it would be impossible for them to later deny knowledge of the killings. Because the Allies had indicated that they were going to pursue criminal charges for German war crimes, Hitler tried to gain the loyalty and silence of his subordinates by making them all parties to the planned genocide.

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--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Since I first mentioned Hitler I guess I'll comment.The parallels I see for Obama are with Jimmy Carter.The parallels I see for Trump are as a political campaigner, and so the comparisons are with the periods of Mussolini's and Hitler's rise to power. That would be to the Mussolini of the late 19-teens and early 1920's, and to the Hitler of the early 1930's.The parallels wouldn't be notable except that Trump's dictatorial tendencies are so obvious. Does anyone ever win an argument with Trump? His approach is to ignore facts, call those who disagree names, make unsupported claims and counter charges, then do as he pleases. He thrives on chaos. With each outrageous statement leaving the opposition (his fellow Republican candidates) in wonder, confusion and disarray, Trump just marches on toward the nomination. He's single-handedly brought the Republican debates down to a 6th grade playground level.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

Primaries are being held today in these states:

• Florida: 99 GOP delegates (winner take all); 246 Democratic delegates (proportional)
• Ohio: 66 delegates (GOP: winner take all); 159 Democratic delegates (proportional)
• Missouri: 52 GOP delegates (hybrid); 71 Democratic delegates (proportional)
• Illinois: 69 GOP delegates (hybrid), 182 Democratic delegates (hybrid)
• North Carolina: 72 GOP delegates (hybrid); 122 Democratic delegates (hybrid)

Also the Northern Marianas GOP caucuses are today, 9 delegates, likely all for Trump.--Percy

Just skimming the Newsweek article you mentioned (Exodus: Why Europe's Jews Are Fleeing Once Again), it does seem to indicate a significant role for Islam in Jews fleeing Europe, particularly France:

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Many western Muslim communities are suffering an identity crisis, says Hussain. The politics of hate offers an easy escape and a means of blaming personal feelings on others. In many cases it resonates with the life experiences of young Muslims. They feel alienated and disenfranchised, due to negative experiences, personal inadequacies or even cultural differences.
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The murders have not dampened anti-Jewish hatred. On the contrary, they seem to have inflamed it. The spike in anti-Semitism has seen emigration to Israel soar. In 2011 and 2012 just under 2,000 French Jews emigrated to Israel.

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In 2013, the year after the Toulouse attack, 3,289 left. In the first quarter of this year 1,778 Jews emigrated. This year I expect 5-6,000 Jews to leave, says Cukierman. If they move to Israel because of Zionism, it’s OK. But if it is because of fear, then that is not pleasant. The problem is that democracy is not well equipped to fight against terrorism. What we saw in Toulouse and Brussels is terrorism.

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Speaking generally to the thread, most persecution and prejudice isn't overtly visible but is just a thousand little cuts. One goes where the future is brightest, and Jews in Europe feel the future dimming. The allusion to WWII is no accident. In Germany Jewish hatred was fueled and encouraged by Nazism's harsh, ruthless and violent practices, but government is only one tool of prejudice. Just being in some group's gun sights diminishes one's human value. Living safe and sound someplace far from the problem we can say that Europeans have a moral obligation to stand united behind their fellow citizens who happen to be Jews, but if we were living in France with a Jewish family next door would we wish them gone to protect our own safety?--Percy

I'm against the rush to judgment on Muslim immigrants, but some facts supporting some parts of your position are undeniable. The Newsweek article I cited in Message 1398 explains that Muslim violence, most notably Toulouse, have sparked a rise in anti-Semitism across France that is fueling Jewish emigration.It's not uncommon for expatriate communities to continue hostilities against ancient foes in their new neighborhoods. How does one know whether a peace-loving violence-hating Muslim immigrant would become violent if housed next door to Jews? One could be cautious and ban immigration of all Muslims, the reaction of many both here and abroad, but I still believe we must be driven by the lessons of World War II when the world turned a deaf ear to the plight of the Jews until it was too late. I wonder what the Jews in France are saying now about Muslim immigration.--Percy

???Jews trying to flee the Nazi threat were denied entry by countries all over the world. By way of example, the US admitted fewer than 100 Polish Jews in 1939 on the eve of the invasion of Poland by Germany and the USSR in September of that year, despite huge numbers of applications. Communication with Jews in western Poland under German control ended at that point, but even in Eastern Poland, controlled by the Soviet Union until June of 1941, very little emigration was possible. After Germany flooded across western Poland to invade the USSR, communication with those Jews also ceased. Most were never heard from again.US immigration policies in the years leading up to WWII were very tight, and even Polish Jews with family already in the US were usually denied entry. Most countries at the time made Jewish immigration very difficult. The difficulties emigration-hopeful Jews faced in those years seem very reminiscent of what we see today for Muslims trying to flee war torn Syria.--Percy

Those seem highly spurious objections. Where transcendent principles are at stake, whatever makes you think that minor particulars make a difference? The mistake that was made in withholding concern, compassion and outreach for the Jews before and during WWII should not be repeated for other persecuted or endangered groups now, no matter who they are or where they are from.--Percy