Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8972 total)
156 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 155 visitors)
Newest Member: Howyoudo
Post Volume: Total: 875,501 Year: 7,249/23,288 Month: 1,155/1,214 Week: 167/303 Day: 7/36 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 711 (796701)
01-03-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-03-2015 4:51 PM


The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. The guy in the video is very convinced that he's arrived at a scientific conclusion from his studies that proves there is global warming (he's using that term instead of the more equivocal "climate change" which is interesting in itself), and that human activity is the cause of it, and he sketches out the theories his study eliminated which leaves this conclusion. But while I'm sure he's sincere it's basically all just his own assertion, his own conclusions, and there's just no way for a person to assess whether his study really did cover all the possibilities, really did include all the relevant information, really did prove what he says. There are others who sound just as sincere and just as aware of all the variables, who disagree with him about such scientific basics.

So there's global warming. Isn't Planet Earth subject to long-term cycles of warming and cooling according to current theory? Isn't there really just too much input of various kinds to come to any such clear conclusion? And given the horrific political consequences of forcing industrialized nations to toe some invented scientific line, how can anybody be eager to see such a solution to what could turn out to be an imaginary problem or at least a problem that has other causes and other possible soilutions if any? Not that there shouldn't be measures taken to cut down on all kinds of emissions and pollutions, I'm sure there should be, but most recommendations are culture-killers and there just isn't enough scientific evidence to warrant them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-03-2015 4:51 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by frako, posted 01-03-2017 11:53 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 331 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-03-2017 2:46 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 332 by Taq, posted 01-03-2017 2:46 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 333 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2017 2:57 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 334 by NoNukes, posted 01-03-2017 9:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 455 of 711 (830266)
03-26-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Percy
03-24-2018 9:53 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Does it cover the American food industry, especially the meat industry, which according to many of the films I've mentioned on the natural foods thread is the biggest contributor to climate change of all of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Percy, posted 03-24-2018 9:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 AM Faith has responded
 Message 463 by Percy, posted 03-26-2018 12:21 PM Faith has responded
 Message 469 by Taq, posted 03-27-2018 5:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 459 of 711 (830270)
03-26-2018 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by frako
03-26-2018 9:41 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Trying to get meat of of peoples tables is even harder then trying to take their gas away. .

If you try to get people to do it for the sake of the environment then of course it would be impossible, but my interest in all these things is primarily in improving my health. I've been learning a lot in the process about the enormous numbers of animals killed every year to feed us and the horrific conditions they are raised in, which adds to the human health problem in lots of ways, but also to environmental problems. It's the studies that show that the huge amount of animal products we eat, in the west anyway, are actually bad for our health that matters most to me in the end and that would be the best way to persuade people to cut way back. For their own sake. And in the process it also would benefit the environment in many ways. We could plant more crops instead, replenish the rain forests too. Of course we'd need a way to bring consumer costs down too or it won't inspire anybody. McDonald's would need a makeover of course, or go out of business.

The only real solution would be depopulation there are at least 4 billion to many of us.

It would be a lot simpler and more humane just to cut our meat consumption by at least half, better by a lot more than that. The depopulation kind of idea always makes me realize that God knows how to deal with these things and since we don't acknowledge Him any more but trust in our own ability to analyze things and solve problems even at the planet level we'll never get it right. But maybe He is working on the problem by inspiring more people to cut back on meat.

We are the last generation that parties like there is no tomorrow, the ones that come after us will know only hunger and suffering because we fucked up their planet.

Here's a thought: Start growing gardens and teaching the next generation to grow gardens. And bring back the God of the Bible.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 03-26-2018 10:40 AM Faith has responded
 Message 462 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 11:06 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 03-26-2018 12:27 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 461 of 711 (830275)
03-26-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 460 by jar
03-26-2018 10:40 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
This is off topic here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 03-26-2018 10:40 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 465 of 711 (830304)
03-26-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by Percy
03-26-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Fertilizers do sound like a huge part of the problem. CO2 is easy, though: plant plant plant those gardens, everybody plant a tree, or one in a hundred of us plant a tree, over time that would accomplish a lot. Start eating more plant foods and reduce the meat industry and restore the rain forests that were cut down to make room for the animals. Easy as to method, impossible as to amount needed of course.

The animals are shown in these films packed tightly together, standing ankle deep in their own manure, which puts out a huge amount of gasses all by itself, not to mention contributing to the food poisoning outbreaks that require the agribusinesses to load the animals with antibiotics which we end up eating, contributing to the growth of resistant bacteria and so on and so forth. but I guess that's sliding off topic again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Percy, posted 03-26-2018 12:21 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Taq, posted 03-27-2018 5:52 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 466 of 711 (830305)
03-26-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by ringo
03-26-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
The God of the Bible was big on meat. Remember how He rejected Cain's veggie offering? Remember the Tabernacle and its accessories? The altar was a barbecue, not a salad bar.

See Message 403

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ringo, posted 03-26-2018 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by frako, posted 03-26-2018 5:20 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 468 by ringo, posted 03-27-2018 11:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 711 (830363)
03-27-2018 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Taq
03-27-2018 5:52 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
f they were out in the wild all it would do is spread the manure around. Herbivores don't naturally hold their poo in.

Someone in one of these films said that if cattle are free to roam and eat grass the e coli isn't a problem the way it is in confined quarters where their hides get splattered with it. And the grass itself plays some role in this though I didn't quite get what.

Yes, meat is natural too, but that's why I put "plant-based" in parentheses to explain how the term is being used.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Taq, posted 03-27-2018 5:52 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 5:41 AM Faith has responded
 Message 475 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 11:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 473 of 711 (830381)
03-28-2018 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by frako
03-28-2018 5:41 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Someone in one of these films said that if cattle are free to roam and eat grass the e coli isn't a problem the way it is in confined quarters where their hides get splattered with it. And the grass itself plays some role in this though I didn't quite get what.

Well duh, in the worst factory farms they have to feed the animals antibiotics just so they can survive the horrible conditions they are put in.

Yes I know, that's the point.

Grass does pay a role cows sheep, goats and other grazing animals are built to eat grass, but if you feed them grain they get fatter faster.

Yes, but they said that something about eating grass in itself got rid of e coli. And that this can't be done because it's not economically feasible, as you are saying. But the point is it's more than the roaming space, it's the grass itself, and that's what I didn't quite follow in the film.

Thing is we dont have nearly enough grazing land to provide enough meat for everyone, put too many animals on the same pasture and its no different then having them holed up in a pen knee deep in their own shit. probably worse since alot of parasites have a life cycle that makes them go trough dygestive systems to get eaten up again later.

Yes the scarcity of land is the big problem, but that's why it would help a great deal if plant foods became the mainstay of people's diets in the west where we have this problem.

The enormous number of cattle and other animals needed in the west is traced to the growth of the fast food industry over the last few decades..

Yes the cost of meat would go up as consumption went down, at least at first, but that would just encourage more plant eating, all in all a good thing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 5:41 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 10:16 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 476 of 711 (830388)
03-28-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by frako
03-28-2018 10:16 AM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Supermarket will have to do if you can't grow your own, though I certainly agree there are drawbacks, that's what all these films I've been talking about on the plant-based thread show.

But you keep totalizing the problem and acting as if we only have five minutes to drastically change our habits. We don't all have to grow all our food all at once, we can do it little by little, whoever can and however we can. and the more of us do it and reject the supermarket offerings the more those offerings are bound to improve too, because they are consumer-driven.

(What does "ha" mean? It's a measurement I guess but how large is it?)

HERE'S a page about the new gizmo called the tower garden, that grows fruits and vegetables "aeroponically" in a vertical space. People even have them in their living rooms, but a patio or balcony is better. Better yet is some yard space of course, but we do what we can however we can and figure if it's a good idea it will grow on people over time.

I keep looking for the perfect short presentation of Annette Larkins and her garden but haven't been able to find one, so here's unfortunately a very long one that nobody will watch, but it starts out showing her garden. The guy talks way too much so it's slow going too. Oh well. He interviews her midway in the film.

She started slowly changing her whole lifestyle 44 years ago and filling her yard with growing foods was part of that. She is now a raw vegan who gets most of her food from the garden. She's 74 in this video, last year I think, so whatever she's doing is clearly very good for her.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 10:16 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 12:01 PM Faith has responded
 Message 480 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 12:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 478 of 711 (830390)
03-28-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by Taq
03-28-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
Yes, we're getting off topic but there is the connection that agribusiness does contribute to climate problems so we're discussing possible solutions to that part of the problem. However, I'll take it all back to the plant foods thread now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 12:01 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 12:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 483 of 711 (830401)
03-28-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by Taq
03-28-2018 1:04 PM


Re: Climate Science Special Report
All that is the bad news. The good news is that plants take in CO2 and put out oxygen, and that enough of them, such as form a rainforest, create their own rainfall. Surely it's possible to plan to maximize the good effects and minimize the bad ones. Discouraging meat eating and encouraging plant eating is one place to start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 1:04 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 485 of 711 (830403)
03-28-2018 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 484 by frako
03-28-2018 2:23 PM


Evaporation has a cooling effect.

The problems of both weed killers and transportation costs would be decreased if personal gardening got popular.

Long term, with the right planning, even rivers and rainforests can be restored.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 2:23 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by frako, posted 03-28-2018 2:51 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 488 by Taq, posted 03-28-2018 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 497 of 711 (839961)
09-20-2018 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by Taq
09-19-2018 12:55 PM


Re: Anyone still doubt climate change?
Higher ocean temps means more storms and stronger storms. There is no way around that. I guess people could argue that the increase in temperature isn't man made, that temperature cycles naturally. However, it is getting rather difficult to deny the facts of temperature increases and the impact it has on long term climate trends.

Yes, that's the question, what is the cause of the rise in temperature.

Somewhere not too long ago, sorry I don't remember who said it, some creationist interpreted the rise in temperature as the normal playing out of effects since the Flood. That is, the Flood brought on a horrific ice age that covered a lot of the planet and since then has been gradually receding to the poles, so the warming we're experiencing is just the continuation of that trend.

Interesting that this is bringing on more destructive storms because it does happen to correspond to the rapidly accumulating "fullness of time" for God's judgment on the planet too. I'm sure if some great number of us asked God to spare us, He would, but that isn't going to happen, is it? "Science" no matter how questionable is always preferable to prayer. In fact it's all going to continue to be imputed to human causes which is going to have political consequences that may be as devastating as the natural causes of God's judgment.

Sorry to bring up such a bummer of a thought, especially after hearing about the cute Talk Like a Pirate Day. But Avast ye and all hands on deck, not to mention shiver me timbers, for the time is at hand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Taq, posted 09-19-2018 12:55 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by ringo, posted 09-20-2018 11:55 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 499 by Taq, posted 09-20-2018 1:16 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 501 of 711 (839986)
09-20-2018 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by Taq
09-20-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Anyone still doubt climate change?
I wonder how the assumption of billions of years for the age of the earth affects calculations of natural causes of CO2 production as opposed to thousands of years. Just wondering. Also, if the theory that there is a natural trend of warming since the Flood is true, human contributions might be speeding it up now, but it would still continue in any case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Taq, posted 09-20-2018 1:16 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by jar, posted 09-21-2018 8:20 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 504 by Taq, posted 09-21-2018 1:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 523 of 711 (863265)
09-23-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 522 by xongsmith
09-23-2019 6:53 PM


Re: Is this the right thread?
What for? Hysterically pointing the finger at people for a catastrophe she doesn't understand and has only been brainwashed into accepting? The Left should be prosecuted for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. This is insane.

It's the Left that is destroying the next generation with its scare tactics.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 522 by xongsmith, posted 09-23-2019 6:53 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by DrJones*, posted 09-24-2019 12:01 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 525 by PaulK, posted 09-24-2019 12:35 AM Faith has responded
 Message 526 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2019 2:56 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 531 by Taq, posted 09-24-2019 11:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020