Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9029 total)
45 online now:
Rahvin, Raphael (2 members, 43 visitors)
Newest Member: BodhitSLAVa
Post Volume: Total: 884,368 Year: 2,014/14,102 Month: 382/624 Week: 103/163 Day: 23/40 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 301 of 824 (794660)
11-19-2016 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by foreveryoung
11-18-2016 7:01 PM


foreveryoung writes:

AGW falls on its face.

Wow, AGW disproved in 4 short sentences and a handful of simple numbers. All those scientists must feel like total fools!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by foreveryoung, posted 11-18-2016 7:01 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 328 of 824 (796698)
01-03-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by RAZD
01-03-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Two items in my news feeds
RAZD writes:

with enough evidence even skepticism will thaw

Sadly, not necessarily.

"The backfire effect occurs when, in the face of contradictory evidence, established beliefs do not change but actually get stronger. The effect has been demonstrated experimentally in psychological tests, where subjects are given data that either reinforces or goes against their existing biases - and in most cases people can be shown to increase their confidence in their prior position regardless of the evidence they were faced with.

In a pessimistic sense, this makes most refutations useless."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2017 8:33 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 576 of 824 (870896)
01-26-2020 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 574 by Phat
01-25-2020 3:17 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth
The end of the world is nigh! Doom, doom, we're all doomed!

What is it about you fundie nutters? Everything is a bloody sign and you're so damn miserable but don't do anything about it but moan.

Put that bloody useless book down and get a life.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by Phat, posted 01-25-2020 3:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 11:27 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 579 of 824 (870914)
01-26-2020 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Phat
01-26-2020 11:27 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth
Phat writes:

OK, I get your point. We all should focus on action and optimism

We should focus on being realistic and grounded in reality - simple-minded optimism is just as bad as doom, doom, doom.

throw the ancient made up warnings away, right?

Certainly, they're obvious garbage.

Little Greta said it first: Why is nobody doing anything? Seems to me that human nature is self-destructive.

Lots of people are doing things, millions of people. The world is turning. It's slow in some parts and fast in others. With your turd of a president it's actually trying to go backwards in your part. Whether it's fast enough to prevent a huge amount of future damage is yet to be seen.

But this is a man-made problem and it's going to be mankind that fixes it, or doesn't. The world won't care and your god isn't going to help so there's no point you wasting your time wailing and grovelling to him. Your time would be better used campaigning to change things and doing what you can yourself.

All this chest beating is just an excuse for doing nothing yourself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Phat, posted 01-26-2020 11:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(5)
Message 609 of 824 (871850)
02-13-2020 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by mike the wiz
02-13-2020 9:11 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth
MtW writes:

OF COURSE most secular scientists accept what secular science says. This is not only expected, it's so banal and tautological it tells us absolutely NOTHING about the veracity of the claims within secular science.

I've pondered this a few times looking for something sensible in it. I'm not finding it.

The scientific method is the best tool we've built to sort out fact from fiction. It's built our modern world. Without it we'd still be in the dark ages.

Do you have a better method of establishing whether, say, a new drug works or if it's snake oil?

What have you got Mike? Are you going to just think very hard about it and declare it efficacious? Maybe look it up in your 2,000 year old book?

You do understand that when a scientist does something, he not only has to say what his conclusions are he has to publish his methodology so that others can verify it? It's a methodology that catches and corrects errors.

Scientists don't just accept what other scientists say, they check and test. It's believers that listen uncritically to the guy in the pulpit and obliged to believe everything the institution tells them for pain of everlasting damnation. Untested and untestable. A mere assertion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by mike the wiz, posted 02-13-2020 9:11 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 724 of 824 (884636)
02-28-2021 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by marc9000
02-27-2021 9:23 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

In Message 650, directed at no one in particular, I showed a list of over 100 common products that I claimed couldn't be produced without fossil fuels in some point of their production and distribution.

Why only a hundred? That's just a list of random products. It would be hard to find a manufactured product that doesn't use fossil fuels in it's production. (Let's forget distribution.)

If you're going to put telephones in the list you might as well include all electrical goods and all white goods. What's the difference between a fishing boot and a shoe? A sweater and a dress? Dishwasher parts and dishwashers?

There are literally millions of modern products that currently use fossil fuels and trillions of them are produced every year.

So the job is to find alternatives and for some it will be easy - you can make dresses and sweaters from wool and cotton - some will be harder. Some may not be worth doing at all.

I think you're making some big mistakes here. The reason we use fossil fuels in almost everything is the reason we need to be finding ways to not do that and because it may be difficult to reduce them in some things is not a reason to not reduce them at all.

And this

quote:
Technology for wind and solar seems to have plateaued

Is just out-and-out wrong.

“Wind power is one of the fastest-growing renewable energy technologies. Usage is on the rise worldwide, in part because costs are falling. Global installed wind-generation capacity onshore and offshore has increased by a factor of almost 75 in the past two decades, jumping from 7.5 gigawatts (GW) in 1997 to some 564 GW by 2018, according to IRENA's latest data. Production of wind electricity doubled between 2009 and 2013, and in 2016 wind energy accounted for 16% of the electricity generated by renewables. Many parts of the world have strong wind speeds, but the best locations for generating wind power are sometimes remote ones. Offshore wind power offers tremendous potential.”

Wind

Solar

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2021 9:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 733 of 824 (884675)
03-02-2021 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by marc9000
03-01-2021 10:15 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

You'd have to forget it, because every product at some point has to ride on a fossil fuel burning truck on rubber tires. Without distribution there would be no products, with no one to buy or pay for them.

I said forget it because you don't need to include it to make your argument. We're utterly dependent on fossil fuels. It's not a contentious point.

Fasted growing IN USE, but not in any technology that would make it reliable in all weather conditions. (Texas) It's not possible to get wind power when the wind isn't blowing.

You may have noticed that Texas is not the world. Or even the USA. We need distribution grids and power storage (not just batteries) to deal with gaps in supply. We also need nuclear power.

They are also discovering new problems with wind and solar. (Texas - unusually cold weather) Windmills wear out, and the blades are not recyclable. The solving of problems with wind and solar, seem to be equally offset by the cropping up of new problems.

Now you're just being silly. Everything has problems everything wears out. We manage those 'problems' with everything else.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:15 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by marc9000, posted 03-03-2021 8:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 743 of 824 (884706)
03-04-2021 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by marc9000
03-03-2021 8:34 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

I just proved Message 658 100% WRONG.

Congratulations. So what, it was a totally stupid position.

We all know that our modern way of life is built on the use of fossil fuels but we also now know that that use is killing the world. So it has to change.

The world isn't ready to replace fossil fuels in any meaningful way in the near future.

Unfortunately it has too whether it's ready or not. Left to deniers like you, we would never be ready.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by marc9000, posted 03-03-2021 8:34 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2021 8:39 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 752 of 824 (884719)
03-05-2021 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by marc9000
03-04-2021 8:39 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc2000 writes:

DID YOU NOTICE THAT THE SAME 3 POSTERS GAVE YOU BOTH APPROVAL DOTS?

I suspect that's because we both think that our dependence on fossil fuels needs to change so that we are no longer dependent on fossils fuels. Whether we are able to do it without using fossil fuels in golf balls is perhaps not that important?

What specifically has to change? Do you think discussions and debate about essential versus non essential uses of fossil fuels should be happening? I'm not denying that it isn't, but it isn't in any noticeable way. If you know of a link where it is, show me.

I don't accept the premise of your question.

We need to reduce the use of fossil fuels as part of a global project to reduce CO2 emissions. We will do that anywhere we can whether the products are essential to our use or otherwise. It's not whether something is essential that matters, it's whether it's CO2 footprint can be successfully reduced or not. Some things will be easier than others.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2021 8:39 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by marc9000, posted 03-07-2021 2:51 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8097
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 773 of 824 (884786)
03-07-2021 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by marc9000
03-07-2021 2:51 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
quote:
So it can be done solely with free markets, or it can be done solely by government mandates. Or obviously a combination of the two. The U.S government already meddles a lot with its various subsidies and tax breaks to experimental attempts to reduce the use of fossil fuels. I think that's enough, or too much.

You can think whatever you like.

quote:
So while I don't favor a 100% free markets / 0% government involvement, I'd prefer more of an 90 / 10 ratio. Government action is already about 15%. What would you say your ideal ratio would be? 0 free markets, to 100% government action? 50/50? What?

There is no ideal. We need to do whatever is necessary.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by marc9000, posted 03-07-2021 2:51 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021