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Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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...don't hold onto their absorbed IR and wait to release it until they reach a level in the atmosphere where the radiation can escape into space. Almost immediately after co2 molecules absorb IR, they collide with nitrogen and oxygen molecules and transfer their added heat to them. If it happen that the CO2 molecules held onto absorbed IR until they could release energy into space, that would mediate global warming. But as you just posted, that does not happen. Just what are you trying to disprove?
Almost immediately after co2 molecules absorb IR, they collide with nitrogen and oxygen molecules and transfer their added heat to them. Would that effect not increase the temperature of the lower atmosphere? Again, what are you trying to disprove? What you have described here is a mechanism for interrupting the reflection and radiation of heat from the earth's surface out towards space. Absent a gas capable of absorbing the very low frequency of IR re-radiated by the earth, the heat from the ground would more easily radiate back into space. Exactly what is your point? Rather than refute global warming, you are describing a mechanism for keeping heat in the lower atmosphere. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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What I posted was the holes and why the logic doesn't hold up You refuted them by providing a model that explained how global warming could work. So your post does not refute AGW at all. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Prove that radiation leaves co2 almost immediately after absorbtion before the molecule makes contact with another molecule. Stop the stupid appeal to authority and show your work. Again, there is no need to do that. Having absorbed CO2, then several things can happen. CO2 moves to upper atmosphere and releases heat, CO2 transfers energy to other molecules. CO2 releases heat in lower atmosphere. Even when all three things happen, the amount of heat re-radiated into space is reduced by the absorption by CO2. Again, your rebuttal does not make any sense. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If conduction only plays a small role and radiation is dominate, then the only molecules slowing the release of heat are greenhouse gases. If conduction dominates and all molecules play a role in the slowdown of heat release( including all molecules in the oceans), then a conduction dominated world would be vastly warmer than a radiation dominated world. That was your point. I did not make any such point. For the purpose of this discussion, only convection and radiation are worth considering. The conductive effect is stable.
What possible effect would the increase from 400 ppm co2 to 800 ppm co2 be in such a world where co2 makes up less than .00000000001 percent of all molecules involved in the heat transfer train? Your mathematics is wrong. 1) The heat transfer train for radiation is unaffected by gases that are essentially transparent to C02. Only the molecules which absorb the IR frequencies play any role in limiting radiation heat transfer process. Your question is like asking why we care about a few ppb of lead dissolved in water. (Well it would be if you learned how to calculate percentages properly. Hint 1000ppm is about 0.1 percent. not that tiny BS number you cited.)
What you're failing to see is that the 255 K temperature of our earth is the result of conduction dominated heat transfer. Radiative transfer only plays a small role. Your reasoning is incomplete. Variations in the radiative transfer can possibly play a large role even if they contribute only a fraction of the overall atmospheric effect. After all, only a few degrees of average temperature change are required to cause problems here on earth. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Greenhouse gases moderate wild temperature fluctuations. Nonsense. You are making this up. Making the earth warmer tends to release more CO2 which would decreases the radiative effect and the conductive effect. There is no moderating effect.
Nitrogen and oxygen do not release heat as quickly as greenhouse gases do. That would significantly slow down the release of heat to space. Not helpful. If CO2 re-emits the heat, it won't all go up to space. Accordingly, the absorption slows down the transfer to space. As far as conduction is concerned adding gasses, even greenhouse gases to the atmosphere decreases heat conduction to space.
Yes, a greenhouse gas free world would have nothing to slow down radiation leaving earths surface Nope. Just saying that conduction dominates is not good enough. Cite the relative size of the effects. Even if conduction is 20 times the radiative heat transfer effect, variations in that 5 percent are meaningful. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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You state as if it were indisputable fact that "Even when all three things happen, the amount of heat re-radiated into space is reduced by the absorption by CO2". It is not disputable. I notice that you don't make a single attempt to point out a hole in the argument. CO2 is heavier than air and absorbs radiation. Surely absorbing and re-radiating heat, through multiple directions and more than one method in the lower part of the atmosphere is less efficient than transmission directly from earth to space. But if you doubt that, at least speculate on a reason why not. Carry your end of the conversation. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I poked holes in current global warming theory. No, you didn't poke any such hole. You postulated something that would make what was described even more effective at retaining heat in the lower atmosphere. That is not a way to dispute anything. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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You do realize the oceans emit carbon dioxide when they warm....the warmer, the more co2 emittance. You see a fairly smooth rise of co2 compared to a very jagged record of actual temperature. In short, the co2 concentration is rising because of warming oceans. True as far as it goes. It is certainly the case that CO2, like most gases, is less soluble in warmer water. But you are failing to see the consequences in perspective What you describe is part of the positive feedback that makes CO2 generation and release to the atmosphere a bad idea. Yes, warming does release some Co2 from the oceans, but that in turn produces more warming.
As for the ozone plot, all I see is arm waving, no concrete evidence. They don't state how much energy has been allowed to reach the surface, particularly the oceans, since the ozone began to be depleted What I see is you jumping from excuse to excuse. Remember when your proposal was based on photons not existing.
No one, has proven that greenhouse gases warm the earth beyond what they warm at very low preindustrial concentrations You sound just like a Tobacco Institute spokesman from the 60s and 70s when they insisted that no one has ever seen any element of cigarette smoke actually produce lung cancer. Prove is a not a scientific word. Not even the theory of general relativity has been proven. The best scientific explanation is AGW, and there is plenty of evidence for the phenomenon, and little reason other than wishful thinking to deny the explanation. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. I think you are on to something. The science will never be clear enough to convince enough folks in the United States to take action so that the need to take even small steps stops being a political question rather than a scientific one. Maybe when metro-Atlanta gets a beach... Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Foreveryoung, do you believe that when carbon dioxide re-radiates that it does so only towards space? That is wrong. The direction is random. At least some heat is radiated towards earth effectively augmenting the incoming radiation. Yes an equilibrium is reached where outgoing equals incoming, but for all forms of heat transfer (convection, conduction, or radiation) increasing the outgoing rate requires increasing temperature of the source.
You are not thinking things through. This particular argument of yours has no legs at all. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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As for heat transfer to the ocean and ice, that also occurs through conduction. But since the ocean holds vastly more heat than the atmosphere, the net transfer of heat is from ocean to ice and the atmosphere. That's not how heat transfer works. Heat transfer is from high temperature to low temperature and not from a body with lots of energy to a body with less energy. If the ocean and the ice are colder than the surroundings, then they gain even more heat. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I said any new energy. The atmosphere warms up in the morning because the sun shines again. This happens everyday. Its not new. When a co2 molecule transfers its energy to the n2 and o2, the total energy in the atmosphere remains the same. You are determined to miss the point. Without co2 and other greenhouse gasses, IR reflected from earth has a relatively direct path back into space. No greenhouse gasses thus means a lessened amount of heating of the atmosphere. With co2 (and CH4 and water vapor), some IR that would have gone straight into space instead is instead absorbed. Yes, some of that energy is transferred to the atmosphere, some of it is re-radiated back into space and some is radiated back towards the ground. Your silly posts acknowledge that there is resultant heating of N2 and O2, but then you try to claim that is all carried away by conduction/convection etc. I'll take care later to address that point. Now that heat which is transferred to the atmosphere is partly transferred to space via convection and conduction, but a temperature gradient is required to drive all types of heat transfer including convection, conduction, and radiation. That means that that extra heat added to the atmosphere requires a higher temperature differential in order to flow away from earth just to maintain an equilibrium. Accordingly, the result is a higher air temperature at low elevations due to the presence of IR absorbing gasses. There is also an exchange of energy between the air, and the sea and the ground both through conduction and convection. So those things can heat up too all because of the increased air temperature created by co2 and others. And of course that equilibrium must account for the fact that some heat is re-radiated towards earth so that an even larger temperature gradient is required to drive the extra heat (in cal/hr) back to space. I don't know if your curriculum included basic coursework in thermodynamics, but your posts here do not display any knowledge of the subject whatsoever. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
He completely ignores the possibility that instead of radiating heat back to the surface, co2 could give its heat to other molecules and thereby heating the atmosphere to an even higher degree as you even saw. He didnt even stop to think that perhaps reflectinv some of its heat back is not powerful enough to cause the temperature of todays earth. He completely ignores the possibility that instead of radiating heat back to the surface, co2 could give its heat to other molecules and thereby heating the atmosphere to an even higher degree as you even saw. Nobody has ignored any such thing. Sounds like you are just wishing things to be true. I challenge you to show me the failure to properly account for heat transfer in the models which predict global warming. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's always nice to have a massive government report to confirm the obvious. Absent the science, and the government report is simply a report of the consensus among scientists, I would suggest that the fact that humans are the driver of global client change is not obvious. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Absent the science, it isn't obvious that the world is round. If the government figures it out, we'd better stop the presses. Anyone is capable of making an observation that provides evidence that the world is round. In fact, the diameter of earth was measured around 200 BC. Almost none of us are capable of demonstrating that global warming is largely caused by humans. So if obvious means, 'after a zillion scientists analyzed the situation and then published their results in a peer-reviewed process', then very few things, despite their monstrous obscurity, are non-obvious. The word obvious would then be a sound without the slightest bit of meaning. Obviously. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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