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Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Phat
Member
Posts: 15143
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 721 of 824 (884603)
02-26-2021 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by Taq
02-25-2021 4:12 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
This is interesting. I was looking for any insight from sources other than the United States.
Is climate change the Armageddon foretold to the world? A review Annual Congress on Environmental Pollution and Sustainable Energy
July 20-22, 2017 Melbourne, Australia
quote:
Abstract :
Statement of the Problem: Climate change impact reveals how man has destroyed earth through burning of fossil fuel and depletion of natural resources. These activities may have worsened and altered the ecological biosphere by causing changes in all the climate entities. This extreme phenomenon called climate change has a negative impact on health. The aim of this paper is to encourage global and national proactive policies and strategic approaches towards tackling climate change. Methodology: This study involved screening of articles that primarily discussed climate change and its consequences. Articles used for this research came from scientific search engines, research journals, newspapers, TV reporting, textbooks and international agencies' reports on climate change.

Findings: This article identified the causes of climate change and its consequences to mankind. It equally noted the evolving human attitude towards other species and to follow humans manifesting in various forms as extreme violent conflicts, negative laws that hampers the effort to mitigate its impact, as they compete for the depleting natural resources. Further, juxtaposing these thoughts with what should be our urgent action plan to mitigate or manage possible consequences of climate change effects. Though the concept of using technology through Geo-engineering system to create a climatic condition conducive for human existence seems promising for future, but promoting healthy lifestyles and public awareness to mitigating the climate change effect still remain a realistic approach in the interim while we encourage innovative energy efficient and renewable technology.

Conclusion & Significance: This paper also is intended to contribute to the existing knowledge on climate change while creating awareness on the need to regulate human activities to prevent the likely extinction of life form on earth while providing a collaborative ideas or solutions for developing nations especially to attain sustainable ecological development through adaption and mitigation.


Note the credentials of the editorial panel and how diverse they are.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Taq, posted 02-25-2021 4:12 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 727 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 9:31 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 722 of 824 (884633)
02-27-2021 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 720 by Taq
02-25-2021 4:12 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
Hmmm, you've responded to a message of mine that's almost a year old. I suspect I know what inspired that, the recent catastrophic failure of wind and solar power in Texas, the experimental solar and wind power that no one anticipated wouldn't work well when subjected to unusually cold, cloudy weather. Your political doubling down, your increased hostility when faced with an embarrassing setback of a liberal policy that didn't go as planned.

I understand. But before I can address anything else you've said, I'd have to ask that you, or any of my other 9 or 10 opponents in this thread, would address a major point that I made back in my Message 686. It got no specific response at all, but it clearly inspired a few rule-breaking insults. Let me describe what led up to that unanswered message of mine;

In Message 650, directed at no one in particular, I showed a list of over 100 common products that I claimed couldn't be produced without fossil fuels in some point of their production and distribution. In Message 658 a response to that message said that all of them could be produced without fossil fuels, and that message got 2 approval dots. In Message 665, I asked (in a respectable way) to show me, that I'm always willing to learn. Then in Message 677 he described Portugal as being 100% renewable. But his links showed that was only in electricity generation, it didn't involve the products that I described. I pointed that out in Message 686, complete with a link that showed Portugal still imports many products from the U.S. that are produced with fossil fuels. That message got no responses.

The world can't do without those products. It's not logical to condemn a method of energy if there are no alternative methods. Technology for wind and solar seems to have plateaued, only minor changes in weather can seriously inhibit their ability to produce any energy at all, and even when doing all that's expected of them in good weather, they can't replace fossil fuels in the manufacture and transport of products.

Here's that list again;

Solvents
Diesel fuel
Motor Oil
Bearing Grease
Ink
Floor Wax
Ballpoint Pens
Football Cleats
Upholstery
Sweaters (that explains the itchy sweater I have at home)
Boats
Insecticides
Bicycle Tires
Sports Car Bodies
Nail Polish
Fishing lures
Dresses
Tires
Golf Bags
Perfumes
Cassettes
Dishwasher parts
Tool Boxes
Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet
Caulking
Petroleum Jelly
Transparent Tape
CD Player (do people still have these?)
Faucet Washers
Antiseptics
Clothesline
Curtains
Food Preservatives
Basketballs
Soap (that explains why soap doesn’t clean oil off your hands)
Vitamin Capsules
Antihistamines
Purses
Shoes
Dashboards
Cortisone
Deodorant
Footballs
Putty
Dyes
Panty Hose
Refrigerant
Percolators
Life Jackets
Rubbing Alcohol
Linings
Skis
TV Cabinets
Shag Rugs
Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks
Car Battery Cases
Epoxy
Paint
Mops
Slacks
Insect Repellent
Oil Filters
Umbrellas
Yarn
Fertilizers
Hair Coloring
Roofing
Toilet Seats
Fishing Rods
Lipstick
Denture Adhesive
Linoleum
Ice Cube Trays
Synthetic Rubber
Speakers
Plastic Wood
Electric Blankets
Glycerin
Tennis Rackets
Rubber Cement
Fishing Boots
Dice
Nylon Rope
Candles
Trash Bags
House Paint
Water Pipes
Hand Lotion
Roller Skates
Surf Boards
Shampoo
Wheels
Paint Rollers
Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings
Luggage
Aspirin
Safety Glasses
Antifreeze
Football Helmets
Awnings
Eyeglasses (I thought they were made from glass)
Clothes
Toothbrushes
Ice Chests
Footballs
Combs
CD’s & DVD’s
Paint Brushes
Detergents
Vaporizers
Balloons
Sun Glasses
Tents
Heart Valves
Crayons
Parachutes
Telephones
Enamel
Pillows
Dishes
Cameras
Anesthetics
Artificial Turf
Artificial limbs
Bandages
Dentures
Model Cars
Folding Doors
Hair Curlers
Cold cream
Movie film
Soft Contact lenses
Drinking Cups
Fan Belts
Car Enamel
Shaving Cream
Ammonia
Refrigerators
Golf Balls
Toothpaste (Yuck)
Gasoline

Now, if you'll pick ANY ONE thing there, and show me (links would be nice) how it can be produced without fossil fuels, we can discuss it. But for the past year, all I've seen in response to it is messages from the EvC kidde corps, like Message 706 and Message 709. If we only have a breaking of forum rule #10, with moderators who can't seem to police it, then my work in this thread is done.

Also wouldn't hurt your chances of more discussion with me if you'd respond to Message 702 and Message 704.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Taq, posted 02-25-2021 4:12 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by vimesey, posted 02-28-2021 1:52 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 724 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2021 3:08 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 725 by AZPaul3, posted 02-28-2021 3:39 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 03-01-2021 12:01 PM marc9000 has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1228
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 8.9


Message 723 of 824 (884635)
02-28-2021 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by marc9000
02-27-2021 9:23 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
I don’t have time to go through a deliberately hyped, scare mongering list of 100 items, so I randomly picked bearing grease and Googled synthetic lubricants. And sure enough, our clever scientists are cracking on with tackling the issue:

Renewable oils for use in lubricants synthesized

I did notice those incredibly essential items, golf balls, were mentioned. I wonder which people consider golf balls to be so important. Oh, that’s right..... silly me.

I imagine the other items will have solutions which clever people are working on - over to other members to chip in - sadly, I have some work to do this weekend


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2021 9:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 9:41 PM vimesey has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8095
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 724 of 824 (884636)
02-28-2021 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by marc9000
02-27-2021 9:23 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

In Message 650, directed at no one in particular, I showed a list of over 100 common products that I claimed couldn't be produced without fossil fuels in some point of their production and distribution.

Why only a hundred? That's just a list of random products. It would be hard to find a manufactured product that doesn't use fossil fuels in it's production. (Let's forget distribution.)

If you're going to put telephones in the list you might as well include all electrical goods and all white goods. What's the difference between a fishing boot and a shoe? A sweater and a dress? Dishwasher parts and dishwashers?

There are literally millions of modern products that currently use fossil fuels and trillions of them are produced every year.

So the job is to find alternatives and for some it will be easy - you can make dresses and sweaters from wool and cotton - some will be harder. Some may not be worth doing at all.

I think you're making some big mistakes here. The reason we use fossil fuels in almost everything is the reason we need to be finding ways to not do that and because it may be difficult to reduce them in some things is not a reason to not reduce them at all.

And this

quote:
Technology for wind and solar seems to have plateaued

Is just out-and-out wrong.

“Wind power is one of the fastest-growing renewable energy technologies. Usage is on the rise worldwide, in part because costs are falling. Global installed wind-generation capacity onshore and offshore has increased by a factor of almost 75 in the past two decades, jumping from 7.5 gigawatts (GW) in 1997 to some 564 GW by 2018, according to IRENA's latest data. Production of wind electricity doubled between 2009 and 2013, and in 2016 wind energy accounted for 16% of the electricity generated by renewables. Many parts of the world have strong wind speeds, but the best locations for generating wind power are sometimes remote ones. Offshore wind power offers tremendous potential.”

Wind

Solar

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2021 9:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5759
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 725 of 824 (884639)
02-28-2021 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by marc9000
02-27-2021 9:23 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
Hmmm, you've responded to a message of mine that's almost a year old. I suspect I know what inspired that, the recent catastrophic failure of wind and solar power in Texas, the experimental solar and wind power that no one anticipated wouldn't work well when subjected to unusually cold, cloudy weather. Your political doubling down, your increased hostility when faced with an embarrassing setback of a liberal policy that didn't go as planned.

What political revisionism! The power policies in Texas are conservative uber-capitalistic laissez-faire to its finest incarnation.

Is starting out your treaties with this BS a sign of more of your irrational BS yet to come?

In Message 650, directed at no one in particular, I showed a list of over 100 common products ...

Oh gawd. Sometimes I hate being right.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2021 9:23 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 726 of 824 (884665)
03-01-2021 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by marc9000
02-27-2021 9:23 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

Now, if you'll pick ANY ONE thing there, and show me (links would be nice) how it can be produced without fossil fuels, we can discuss it.


Sweaters - wool
Boats - wood
Dresses - wool, cotton, linen
Tool Boxes - wood
Clothesline - hemp
Curtains - cotton, linen
Food Preservatives - salt, vinegar
Shoes - leather
Skis - wood
Tool Racks - wood
Yarn - wool

That's more than one already, and i didn't even read the whole list.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by marc9000, posted 02-27-2021 9:23 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:20 PM ringo has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 727 of 824 (884669)
03-01-2021 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Phat
02-26-2021 9:00 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
quote:
Conclusion & Significance: This paper also is intended to contribute to the existing knowledge on climate change while creating awareness on the need to regulate human activities to prevent the likely extinction of life form on earth while providing a collaborative ideas or solutions for developing nations especially to attain sustainable ecological development through adaption and mitigation.

Is this really any different than what has been said in the U.S. for the past 30 years or so, starting with Al Gore?

How's this for an idea - why can't we appoint some kind of task force or committee to divide fossil fuel use into two catagories - essential use and non-essential use of fossil fuels? There would be a lot of debates and disagreements, but many conclusions could be reached. Some conclusions could be reached quickly, essential use would include the generation of electric power, gasoline and oil for cars and trucks, the manufacturing of products that contribute to the basics of life - some, not all, of the ones in my Message 650 (also Message 722). It couldn't happen overnight, it would take years to arrive at set conclusions, it's too bad we didn't start that 30 years ago, and it's too bad we're not doing it now, and it's too bad we'll never do it.

Why do I say we'll never do it, you ask? Because politicians, scientists, environmentalists, regulation commanders, will never propose or do ANYTHING to jeopardize their own lifestyles. Here's some easy ones for non-essential use of fossil fuels - Pleasure boats, from the tiniest fishing boats to the biggest cruise ships, and everything in between. Including politicians yachts, houseboats and motor boats of all sizes that are tied up by the millions on rivers and lakes all over the U.S. This is all purely for non essential use, has nothing to do with providing heat, cooling, food etc. From my list, we have football cleats, fishing lures, golf bags and balls, perfumes, basketballs, footballs, skis, hair coloring, fishing rods, tennis rackets, dice, roller skates, surf boards, model cars. All non essential. How about the fossil fuels used to heat and cool basketball and football sports arenas? Fireworks weren't on my list, but it takes fossil fuels to make them. Non essential.

How about we just knock all this stuff out right now, and allow the working poor to keep driving their old, polluting junk cars back and fourth to work so they can feed their families? We should be able to notice a difference in the earth's temperature in only a decade or two, and then determine how much more we can do, or if all the lost jobs, poverty and anger it caused didn't make one bit of difference. If we only do things that please rich politicians, like destroy the poor's ability to use an old car or truck, or destroy their ability to keep from freezing to death due to costly new regulations on power companies (that pass the costs on to the poor) then we have to wait 50 or 100 years to see if it did any good.

This example shows that a meaningful, common sense cutback in unnecessary fossil fuel use would affect politicians, multimillionaire news anchors, and other "rich" people far more than if would affect working class Americans.

But all we'll continue to hear is vague references like "creating awareness on the need to regulate human activities", and the only humans who will be regulated are the ones who don't have the money to buy off the politicians. They'll starve to death, they'll freeze to death, while all the politicians friends and families enjoy their lavish use of fossil fuels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Phat, posted 02-26-2021 9:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 728 of 824 (884670)
03-01-2021 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by vimesey
02-28-2021 1:52 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
From your link;

quote:
"This is one of the first attempts to make renewable lubricants from abundant raw materials, and in a very precise chemical way so that the architecture of these large molecules is dialed in, something unachievable using crude oil,"

To replace current use of fossil fuels, we can't use "first attempts". We need finished attempts, cost effective, tested, ready to go.

I did notice those incredibly essential items, golf balls, were mentioned. I wonder which people consider golf balls to be so important. Oh, that’s right..... silly me.

I can tell you who considers golf balls to be so important, politicians, and other rich people including Democrat news anchors who wring their hands about global warming. They can be pretty passionate about their golf games. When it comes to any future "regulation of human activity", you can be sure they'll have all the golf balls they want, no matter who else they've decided to "regulate".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by vimesey, posted 02-28-2021 1:52 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by vimesey, posted 03-02-2021 12:38 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 729 of 824 (884671)
03-01-2021 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by Tangle
02-28-2021 3:08 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
Why only a hundred? That's just a list of random products. It would be hard to find a manufactured product that doesn't use fossil fuels in it's production.

In Message 658 RAZD said everything there could be made without fossil fuels. (I'm sorry by the way, that he has passed, I considered him to be in the top 50% of the more civil posters here) But this kind of amazing disinformation is really dangerous. The Democrat party and fake news media have been very successful in downplaying the importance fossil fuels play in everyone's life all over the world.

(Let's forget distribution.)

You'd have to forget it, because every product at some point has to ride on a fossil fuel burning truck on rubber tires. Without distribution there would be no products, with no one to buy or pay for them.

There are literally millions of modern products that currently use fossil fuels and trillions of them are produced every year.

And the increased "regulation" of the manufacture and distribution of those products is a much more serious issue than many Democrats and the people who voted for them realize, since they're so clueless about how the world actually works.

marc9000 writes:

Technology for wind and solar seems to have plateaued

Is just out-and-out wrong.

“Wind power is one of the fastest-growing renewable energy technologies. Usage is on the rise worldwide,...

Fasted growing IN USE, but not in any technology that would make it reliable in all weather conditions. (Texas) It's not possible to get wind power when the wind isn't blowing. It's true of course that fossil fuels will eventually have to be replaced as they start running out and costs increase. Free markets will get it done, the cost increases will incentivize it. I suspect it will have something to do with nuclear. Today's smart phones are light years beyond the citizen's band radios of the 1970's - I suspect today's nuclear technology is in the cb phase right now. It will take cost increases in fossil fuels, combined with getting many of today's nuclear hating Democrats out of the way, to see some new breakthroughs with nuclear power.

They are also discovering new problems with wind and solar. (Texas - unusually cold weather) Windmills wear out, and the blades are not recyclable. The solving of problems with wind and solar, seem to be equally offset by the cropping up of new problems.

Nine Common Problems with Solar Panels


This message is a reply to:
 Message 724 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2021 3:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Tangle, posted 03-02-2021 2:27 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1178
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 730 of 824 (884672)
03-01-2021 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by ringo
03-01-2021 12:01 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
Sweaters - wool
Boats - wood
Dresses - wool, cotton, linen
Tool Boxes - wood
Clothesline - hemp
Curtains - cotton, linen
Food Preservatives - salt, vinegar
Shoes - leather
Skis - wood
Tool Racks - wood
Yarn - wool

It requires steel to cut wood. Can't get steel without fossil fuels. Takes tools, (plastic, steel) to shear sheep. To raise them domestically, it takes fossil fuels in many ways. Salt, vinegar, leather, the processing of them takes fossil fuels in several ways. And all those things have to be transported by trucks, all currently powered by fossil fuels.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by ringo, posted 03-01-2021 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by AZPaul3, posted 03-01-2021 11:46 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 734 by ringo, posted 03-02-2021 11:11 AM marc9000 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5759
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 731 of 824 (884673)
03-01-2021 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by marc9000
03-01-2021 10:20 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
You bullshit artists are all the same. Stupid.

Just because it is today does not mean it has to remain that way. Things change, though much too slowly for your snail's-paced intellect to comprehend even as slow as that is.

You yourself laid the ground rules. Fossil fuels are about to become prohibitively expensive. Alternatives have been and are being found.

And you know, or should know by now, the Texas situation has nothing ... repeat ... just in case you weren't paying attention again ... nothing to do with renewables and everything to do with republican capitalists' dismantling of the oversight regulations that would have been in place to prevent precisely what happened. I'm surprised it took this long to bite them in the ass.

Your sin-kin, the republican party, Texas style, did that all to them selves.

And all those things have to be transported by trucks, all currently powered by fossil fuels.

At this late date in the news cycle!??

Did you not hear the announcements? The very recent and widely publicized announcements, that all the vehicle manufacturers are going to all gas-free products in the 2030's?

Your strawman can't stand. He's only temporary until the electric trucks and the electric trains get here between now and the next decade or so.

So, are you really here just to lie about everything or is there a higher purpose?

I'm thinking that in honor of CPAC their leaders unleashed an army of you politically braindead warriors to shill for conservative conspiracy theories and gen'up more bs disinformation.

I'll bet that's exactly what you are.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:20 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1228
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 8.9


(1)
Message 732 of 824 (884674)
03-02-2021 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 728 by marc9000
03-01-2021 9:41 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
In a way, I almost envy the level of comfort that must come from being as stupid as you are. There must be some level of warm feeling that comes from being able to believe every stupid lie and moronic self justification that gets fed to you or invented in that cosy little collection of lonely cells in your skull that passes for a brain.

The scientific solutions to the problems of climate change are being worked on and rolled out. Anyone with the merest hint of an ability to reason will realise that this will take some time to achieve - no one is saying that each and every one of the solutions can be magicked into existence overnight out of thin air. You make Don Quixote look like a genius.

And as for golf, see if you can attribute this quotation correctly:

It may be elitist, and perhaps that's what golf needs. Let golf be elitist. When I say 'aspire,' that's a positive word. Let people work hard and aspire to some day be able to play golf. To afford to play it. They're trying to teach golf to people who will never be able to really play it. They're trying too hard. Because of the expense of playing, and the land needed, golf is never going to be basketball, where all you need is a court.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 9:41 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8095
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 733 of 824 (884675)
03-02-2021 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by marc9000
03-01-2021 10:15 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

You'd have to forget it, because every product at some point has to ride on a fossil fuel burning truck on rubber tires. Without distribution there would be no products, with no one to buy or pay for them.

I said forget it because you don't need to include it to make your argument. We're utterly dependent on fossil fuels. It's not a contentious point.

Fasted growing IN USE, but not in any technology that would make it reliable in all weather conditions. (Texas) It's not possible to get wind power when the wind isn't blowing.

You may have noticed that Texas is not the world. Or even the USA. We need distribution grids and power storage (not just batteries) to deal with gaps in supply. We also need nuclear power.

They are also discovering new problems with wind and solar. (Texas - unusually cold weather) Windmills wear out, and the blades are not recyclable. The solving of problems with wind and solar, seem to be equally offset by the cropping up of new problems.

Now you're just being silly. Everything has problems everything wears out. We manage those 'problems' with everything else.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:15 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by marc9000, posted 03-03-2021 8:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 734 of 824 (884677)
03-02-2021 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 730 by marc9000
03-01-2021 10:20 PM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
marc9000 writes:

It requires steel to cut wood. Can't get steel without fossil fuels.


charcoal <-- wood

Takes tools, (plastic, steel) to shear sheep.

Flint.

Salt, vinegar, leather, the processing of them takes fossil fuels in several ways.

Nope. Nope. Nope. All of them were in use long before fossil fuels.

And all those things have to be transported by trucks, all currently powered by fossil fuels.

Feet - powered by broccoli.

Have you heard of history at all? Or did that begin with fossil fuels?


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by marc9000, posted 03-01-2021 10:20 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by Phat, posted 03-03-2021 10:54 AM ringo has responded
 Message 741 by marc9000, posted 03-03-2021 8:43 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15143
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 735 of 824 (884687)
03-03-2021 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 734 by ringo
03-02-2021 11:11 AM


Re: An Inconvenient Truth -- still true
Not that I am agreeing with the political ideologies of marc9000 but I think that his point is that we the people will never regress in history and become Quakers simply to "save the planet". There will always...ALWAYS be a selfish group of people (likely close to 30% or more) who will keep using fossil fuels to "fuel" their lifestyle. This figure may hold true globally and not just in the United States. There will always be division in the global population over what we order ourselves to do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by ringo, posted 03-02-2021 11:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by ringo, posted 03-03-2021 11:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 737 by dwise1, posted 03-03-2021 2:04 PM Phat has responded

  
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