Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,585 Year: 4,842/9,624 Month: 190/427 Week: 0/103 Day: 0/0 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!!
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 916 of 971 (895059)
06-07-2022 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 900 by Dredge
06-03-2022 3:09 PM


Re: Texas Toast
You are an idiot.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 900 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:09 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 917 of 971 (895060)
06-07-2022 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by Dredge
06-03-2022 3:33 PM


Re: Texas Toast
Who was the lecturer? What was the topic? In what contexts was Gaia mentioned? Is this true?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Dredge, posted 06-03-2022 3:33 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 918 of 971 (895061)
06-07-2022 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 912 by Dredge
06-06-2022 1:37 PM


Re: Texas Toast
If the oceans are indeed rising, they will be rising at every point of every coastline on the planet, yet all we've heard about for the last twenty years are the problems at the grand total of TWO locations - Tuvalu and Shishmaref. Funny, that.
Are you really this stupid?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by Dredge, posted 06-06-2022 1:37 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 919 of 971 (895064)
06-07-2022 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 912 by Dredge
06-06-2022 1:37 PM


Re: Texas Toast
Dredge writes:
If the oceans are indeed rising, they will be rising at every point of every coastline on the planet,...
You don't come right out and say it, but this implies that you believe that sea level rise will be the same everywhere (ignoring tides, storms, etc.). Likely you don't believe that since you live on an island continent where 85% of the population lives within 30 miles of the ocean, your member name is Dredge, and your avatar is a lake/harbor dredge.
Anyway, whatever you believe, here's some information. The ocean is not just a giant swimming pool with the level the same all around the pool. There are a lot of factors at work.
You probably already know tidal changes are not the same everywhere. As you travel a coastline the magnitude of the tidal change can vary enormously, governed by a number of factors. Some parts of the world have very small tides, like the Mediterranean and the Caribbean, while the Bay of Fundy's tide change is about 38 feet.
Like tides, the amount of sea level rise will vary widely around the world. Ignoring lunar tidal influences, sea levels around the world vary according to currents, temperature, saltiness and land configuration. Because of these factors some coastlines will experience greater sea level rise than others. NOAA ( National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) projects that the US coastline will experience sea level rise that averages 10-12 inches in the next 30 years, varying regionally (see Projections through 2150 for all U.S. coastal waters). And at Sea Level Rise Technical Report the NOAA explains why sea level rise varies around the world:
quote
The first driver, stereodynamic sea level change, refers to changes in the ocean’s movement (circulation and currents) and its climate (temperature and saltiness). Trade winds and currents can push water higher, or lower, in different regions. Freshwater added from melting ice sheets and glaciers can shift ocean circulation patterns in different regions by changing the saltiness, temperature, and density of the water.
...
Changes in land ice and solid Earth – also called gravitational, rotational, and deformational changes – can also affect regional sea level. When ice sheets and glaciers melt or lose mass, this adds freshwater to the oceans and changes the gravity, deformation, and rotation of the Earth, which then contributes to higher sea level rise at locations farther away from the ice melting source than locations close by. These patterns of sea level rise are known as “fingerprints” and are the reason that ice mass loss from distant Antarctica will impact the U.S. coastline more so than ice mass loss from Greenland.
Tuvalu is only one of the more dramatic examples and definitely not the sole victim of climate change that has been written about. Here's a brief report on how Woodbridge, a coastal community in New Jersey, is dealing with sea level rise with a home buy-back program. This from my Message 62 in the Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals? thread from last year:
US coastlines are already surrendering to rising sea levels. Woodbridge is a New Jersey coastal community just across the water from Staten Island. It's coastal area is low lying, and they've been forced to adopt a purchase program for those who have lost the fight against seawater. From Hurricane Sandy: 5 years later, Sayreville, Woodbridge working Rutgers floodplain restoration plan:
quote
In May 2013, the state home-buyback initiative was set up. Administered through the state Department of Environmental Protection, the Blue Acres Buyout Program allows the state to purchase the properties of willing sellers in disaster-prone areas at pre-flood market values, providing them the resources to move to safer locations.
Under the federally- and state-funded initiative, homes are demolished and the land is permanently preserved as open space for recreation and/or conservation. The goal is to purchase clusters of homes to provide areas that will absorb flood waters, state officials said.
Even if Tuvalu didn't exist, even if there were no low lying oceanic island complexes, it wouldn't change the fact of sea level rise. It's not possible you don't know about the amount of water and ice flowing into the ocean from glaciers around the world, mostly in Greenland and Antarctica. Sea level cannot help but rise. Rising and falling sea levels have happened many times in geologic history. Around 18,000 years ago you could walk from Asia to Australia.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by Dredge, posted 06-06-2022 1:37 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 920 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-07-2022 3:57 PM Percy has replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 920 of 971 (895082)
06-07-2022 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by Percy
06-07-2022 10:20 AM


Re: Texas Toast
Over half the sea level rise during the past 25 years is due to thermal expansion. This component of SLR is projected to increase to over 70% in the future. The oceans are heating up rapidly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by Percy, posted 06-07-2022 10:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 921 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 2:40 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 921 of 971 (895137)
06-08-2022 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 920 by AnswersInGenitals
06-07-2022 3:57 PM


Re: Texas Toast
AnswersInGenitals writes:
Over half the sea level rise during the past 25 years is due to thermal expansion. This component of SLR is projected to increase to over 70% in the future. The oceans are heating up rapidly.
I found sites on the Internet that also said this, and I found a link to an IPCC report where the claim originates: Climate Change 2007
This motivated me to do a little math. Average ocean depth is 2.29 miles, and at 50 degrees a 1°F increase in temperature causes a .00899% increase in volume (for pure water, couldn't find a figure for ocean water), which causes a 4.35 inch rise in ocean level, assuming vertical shorelines instead of the actual sloping ones. Surface ocean temperatures are supposed to rise around 2°F by 2050, so the accompanying estimated 1 foot rise seems right in the ballpark, with around 9 inches from thermal expansion of water and 3 inches from melting ice.
All of Greenland's ice melting would cause a 21 foot increase in sea level, and Antarctica's would add maybe another 200 feet, and the rest of the world's ice maybe 15 more feet, but we know sea levels have changed hundreds of feet in the past. Even though thermal expansion of water is a currently a significant contributor to sea level rise, that can't be true in the long term because a hundred degree change in water temperature is only 36 feet. So I assume the geologic uplift and subsidence were also contributors.
--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Mistakenly said "feet" instead of "meters" in part of last paragraph, so I've fixed it and rewritten the latter part of the paragraph to make sense in light of the new figures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 920 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-07-2022 3:57 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 922 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 3:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 923 by NosyNed, posted 06-09-2022 9:16 AM Percy has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 922 of 971 (895139)
06-08-2022 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 921 by Percy
06-08-2022 2:40 PM


Re: Texas Toast
I wonder how those sea level changes happened?
The great flud(s)?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 921 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 2:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 926 by dwise1, posted 06-09-2022 11:11 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 923 of 971 (895153)
06-09-2022 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 921 by Percy
06-08-2022 2:40 PM


a wee bit under
From memory, I think the Antarctic ice is good for about 70 meters (200 feet)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 921 by Percy, posted 06-08-2022 2:40 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 9:51 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 924 of 971 (895155)
06-09-2022 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 923 by NosyNed
06-09-2022 9:16 AM


Re: a wee bit under
Thanks, I was reading meters and thinking feet. I'm going to fix my post.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by NosyNed, posted 06-09-2022 9:16 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by dwise1, posted 06-09-2022 10:12 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5969
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 925 of 971 (895156)
06-09-2022 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by Percy
06-09-2022 9:51 AM


Re: a wee bit under
When you read "meters", think "yards". Should be close enough.
Part of a page I'm working on for my website, "How to Learn to Think in Metric".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by Percy, posted 06-09-2022 9:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5969
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 926 of 971 (895157)
06-09-2022 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 922 by AZPaul3
06-08-2022 3:12 PM


Re: Texas Toast
The great flud(s)?
According to research I did back when and posted on CompuServe in 1990 (GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF AN ANCIENT EARTH), the melting of the ice sheet at the end of the last ice age, the Wisconsinan Ice Age:
quote
As promised earlier:
      Question: "Is there any evidence of a single world-wide flood?"
      Answer: "YES, and it is still going on!"
During the ice ages, the sea level would subside due to the amount of water that would be trapped in the ice caps rather than being in the oceans. During the last great ice age, the Wisconsinan, the sea level was about 200 feet lower than it is now. This means that ocean bottom shallower than 200 feet was dry land and a number of land bridges, such as the one across the Bering Strait were open. Judging from my atlas, most of the Persian Gulf should have been dry land.
Then about 11,000 to 17,000 years ago, the Wisconsinan Ice Age ended, the ice melted, and the sea level rose, flooding the lowlands. Since human populations tend to concentrate along the shorelines and in the lowlands, this catastrophic flooding could not have gone unnoticed. Indeed, it would be very surprising NOT to encounter flood stories world-wide.
So not only do we have here an example of a single world-wide flood produced entirely by natural causes, but it is still going on; the flood waters have not subsided! Indeed, if the world climate warms up as we fear it will, then we would be faced with still worse flooding as the sea level rises another 150 feet (if the entire Antarctic ice cap were to melt).
ABE:
So we are still in the middle of that world-wide flood; the waters have not receded! And now the "flood waters" are getting even higher.
Since then, I learned of the Wallace Line in Indonesia:
quote
The Wallace Line or Wallace's Line is a faunal boundary line drawn in 1859 by the British naturalist Alfred Russel Wallace and named by English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley that separates the biogeographical realms of Asia and Wallacea, a transitional zone between Asia and Australia. West of the line are found organisms related to Asiatic species; to the east, a mixture of species of Asian and Australian origin is present. Wallace noticed this clear division during his travels through the East Indies in the 19th century.
The line runs through Indonesia, between Borneo and Sulawesi (Celebes), and through the Lombok Strait between Bali and Lombok.
Using Google Earth (which also displays sea depth), I found the depths of the Java Sea to be under 200 feet, similar to the depth of the Persian Gulf, which would be indicative of a land bridge during the Wisconsin Ice Age. However, between Bali and Lombok (through which the Wallace Line runs) sea depth is 2000 to 3000 feet deep, hence no land bridge for there. Same between Borneo and Sulawesi (about 5000 feet deep).
Also, on a "Discovery"-type channel, they reported about an ancient sea-side temple complex somewhere on the coast of India. It stands there half submerged about a quarter mile out from shore (if I recall correctly).

Edited by dwise1, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 922 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2022 3:12 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 927 of 971 (895209)
06-14-2022 5:39 PM


Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 154 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 928 of 971 (895283)
06-20-2022 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 915 by AnswersInGenitals
06-06-2022 6:56 PM


Re: Texas Toast
AnswersinGenitals writes:
The global climate crisis isn't just causing sea level rise, which is currently very gradual at less than a centimeter a year, but is causing significantly harsher storms and hurricanes, much higher storm surges, and much faster coastal erosion.
Oh, I get it - you have next to nothing to offer as evidence that rising sea levels are problematic, so you've resorted to trying to change the subject.
If "global warming" were causing alarming rises in sea levels, two countries especially would be screaming blue bloody murder - the Netherlands and Bangladesh. But what do we hear from them? Sweet bugger-all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 915 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-06-2022 6:56 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 929 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-20-2022 1:59 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 933 by Theodoric, posted 06-20-2022 10:16 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 934 by ringo, posted 06-21-2022 11:59 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 936 by AZPaul3, posted 06-21-2022 4:22 PM Dredge has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 231 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 929 of 971 (895285)
06-20-2022 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 928 by Dredge
06-20-2022 1:21 PM


Re: Texas Toast
Dredge, I know you are just a troll trying to have some fun with us, but this 2017 NYT article might interest you. It reads in part:
NYT writes:
"From a Dutch mind-set, climate change is not a hypothetical or a drag on the economy, but an opportunity. While the Trump administration withdraws from the Paris accord, the Dutch are pioneering a singular way forward.
It is, in essence, to let water in, where possible, not hope to subdue Mother Nature: to live with the water, rather than struggle to defeat it. The Dutch devise lakes, garages, parks and plazas that are a boon to daily life but also double as enormous reservoirs for when the seas and rivers spill over. You may wish to pretend that rising seas are a hoax perpetrated by scientists and a gullible news media. Or you can build barriers galore. But in the end, neither will provide adequate defense, the Dutch say.
And what holds true for managing climate change applies to the social fabric, too. Environmental and social resilience should go hand in hand, officials here believe, improving neighborhoods, spreading equity and taming water during catastrophes. Climate adaptation, if addressed head-on and properly, ought to yield a stronger, richer state.
This is the message the Dutch have been taking out into the world. Dutch consultants advising the Bangladeshi authorities about emergency shelters and evacuation routes recently helped reduce the numbers of deaths suffered in recent floods to “hundreds instead of thousands,” according to Mr. Ovink."
I guess "screaming blue bloody murder" is an Australian thing. Others use their ingenuity to deal with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 928 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2022 1:21 PM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 930 by nwr, posted 06-20-2022 4:14 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6419
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 930 of 971 (895287)
06-20-2022 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 929 by AnswersInGenitals
06-20-2022 1:59 PM


Re: Texas Toast
I guess "screaming blue bloody murder" is an Australian thing.
Having grown up in Australia, I guess I'll come to their defense. They recently voted out their previous government (which seemed to think like Dredge). And global warming was one of the major issues in that election.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-20-2022 1:59 PM AnswersInGenitals has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 931 by dwise1, posted 06-20-2022 5:18 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied
 Message 932 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-20-2022 6:56 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024