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Author Topic:   Roy Moore, Alabama Chief Idiot back in the news yet again.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2 of 313 (749916)
02-10-2015 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
02-10-2015 10:31 AM


Ken Ham isn't subject to the First Amendment, Alabama isn't subject to federal law, God's in his heaven, all's well with the world.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 02-10-2015 10:31 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(9)
Message 9 of 313 (749947)
02-10-2015 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
02-10-2015 1:02 PM


Faith writes:
Moore is a hero to me of course. He knows that the people have voted against gay marriage and that their will should prevail over the misbegotten rulings of the Supreme Court that call the will of the people unconstitutional.
We're fortunate to live in a country where the majority's penchant for tyranny is held in check. The will of the people *should* will out, but not to target disfavored groups for persecution. Our country embraces principles that mere majorities cannot vanquish.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add last sentence.

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 Message 5 by Faith, posted 02-10-2015 1:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 45 of 313 (750039)
02-11-2015 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
02-11-2015 12:26 PM


Faith writes:
But what's happening in this case is the minority is ruling the rest of us. Driving Christians out of business is tyranny of the minority.
You're claiming harm to fundamentalist Christians when there is none. It should be no skin off your nose that married gay couples exist. You want to impose your religious views on others by denying a group rights that everyone else has. No one's imposing their religious views upon you. You're still free to practice your religion as you see fit. Fundamentalist ministers across the country are still fully within their rights to refuse to marry gay couples, and to refuse to admit married gay couples into their congregations. But the state is not a religion and cannot deny rights to any group.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 12:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 12:56 PM Percy has replied
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 02-11-2015 2:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 51 of 313 (750045)
02-11-2015 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
02-11-2015 12:56 PM


Businesses do not have religious beliefs that they can exercise to deny rights to others. That's a privilege granted churches, not businesses.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 12:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 1:29 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 64 of 313 (750073)
02-11-2015 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Faith
02-11-2015 1:29 PM


Faith writes:
Funny, I would have thought freedom of religion was, not a privilege, but a God-given RIGHT, which is how it has always been understood until recently, a RIGHT, and not granted to any sort of institution but to PEOPLE. You know, human beings.
Uh, yes, of course. I likened businesses to churches because both are organizations, but it's fine if you prefer to put it in personal terms. Freedom of religion is a right given to people and churches, not businesses. Businesses do not have the right to the free exercise of religion because businesses do not have religions, people and churches do.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 1:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 2:15 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 76 of 313 (750105)
02-11-2015 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
02-11-2015 2:15 PM


Faith writes:
So Christians running a business are fair game, no more First Amendment for them.
Yes, of course. Fundamentalist Christians are protected by the First Amendment in the free exercise of their religion. They are not protected by the First Amendment in the running of their business, which is a secular activity.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 2:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 2:58 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 86 of 313 (750128)
02-11-2015 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
02-11-2015 2:58 PM


Faith writes:
So you keep saying, and I keep answering that that is just a clever way of denying us our First Amendment protection.
Businesses never had any First Amendment protections. Owners and employees of businesses are not free to inflict their personal religious prejudices on the general public. They have to treat everyone equally.
This principle protects everyone, including you. Dover, Pennsylvania, became divided over the evolution issue a few years ago. Businesses on one side could not refuse to do business with those on the other. Otherwise someone like you might go to the market and place your goods on the counter only to be told, "Your money's no good here. Why don't you just turn around and walk out that door."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 2:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 101 of 313 (750145)
02-11-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
02-11-2015 3:54 PM


Re: The jokes just keep coming
Faith writes:
On the other hand, homosexuality is a Sin/Aberration.
In the secular world, homosexuality is a sexual preference. In your religious world maybe it is a sin/aberration, but there are limits to the degree you can act on your religious beliefs. Slap a gay person in the face and you're risking a charge of assault, even in your own church. Refuse to sell to a gay person what you would sell anyone else and you're risking a charge of discrimination, denial of civil rights and the like.
We don't give special rights to sins. We don't give special rights to pedophiles or prostitutes or cheats and liars and thieves and murderers: we TAKE AWAY their rights.
But religions don't get to decide what's legal and illegal. That's the state's responsibility, and the state doesn't hold homosexuality illegal. Homosexuals are not asking for special rights. They're asking for the same rights as everyone else.
All you've done is redefine a sin category into an Oppressed Minority category.
Religious sins are not against the law, and the multiplicity of religions don't agree on what's a sin anyway. The Catholics used to believe it a sin to eat meat on Friday, but they would never call the police to report Methodists eating meat on Friday. That would have been absurd, yet you're making the equally absurd request that it be against the law for people to sin against your religion.
This is what GOD says, and what YOU say doesn't count against what God says.
Someone as hateful as yourself definitely has no idea what God says.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 3:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 4:26 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 109 of 313 (750156)
02-11-2015 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
02-11-2015 4:17 PM


Re: The jokes just keep coming
Blackstone lived a long time ago, and I didn't find anything in the Declaration of Independence that even remotely echoes what you say about common law. I found Blackstone's commentaries over at Google Books, and searches did not find the phrase "ultra vires", maybe you can help me out there.
I did find this interesting tidbit in the commentaries:
Blackstone writes:
A sixth species of offenses against God and religion, of which our ancient books are full, is a crime of which one knows not well what account to give. I mean the offense of witchcraft, conjuration, enchantment, or sorcery. To deny the possibility, nay, actual existence, of witchdraft and sorcery, is at once flatly to contradict the revealed word of God, in various passages of both the old and new testament.
So it looks like old Blackstone believed in witchcraft, and he wasn't much for separation of church and state. Blackstone doesn't seem to be particularly pertinent to this discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 4:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(4)
Message 150 of 313 (750212)
02-12-2015 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
02-11-2015 4:26 PM


Re: The jokes just keep coming
Faith writes:
True religion, Christianity, did indeed originally define American law,...
Many factors, Christianity included, influenced American law.
...and to now make homosexuality a special protected class is a violation of that original law and a slap in God's face.
First, homosexuals are only being granted the same rights as everyone else. They are not being given any special protections.
Second, the First Amendment proscribes the incorporation of religious beliefs into law. Your belief that it is a slap in God's face to give homosexuals the same rights as everyone cannot influence law in this country because of this amendment.
The owners and employees of secular businesses cannot discriminate on the basis of their personal religious beliefs. This protects everyone from religiously based discrimination, including you.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-11-2015 4:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 155 of 313 (750237)
02-12-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
02-12-2015 1:13 AM


Re: The jokes just keep coming
Faith writes:
Message 96 is the answer, you aren't going to get a "general" answer whatever that is, the one I gave is the answer.
I explored a very similar issue with you in another thread, and you gave a very similar non-answer.
You have beliefs that you did not arrive at by any rational chain of reasoning, so the flaws and fallacies of your after the fact rationalizations are readily apparent, and when they're called to your attention you fall back on, "Trust me, I know."
But almost your every message is full of errors and fallacies. You know what you believe, but you seem to know or accept little about the real world. You live in a fantasyland and have taken on the impossible task of convincing everyone else that it is real.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 02-12-2015 1:13 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by PaulK, posted 02-12-2015 1:01 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22693
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 156 of 313 (750255)
02-12-2015 12:43 PM


A Signer of the Declaration of Independence Says...
Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence:
Rush writes:
"The human mind seldom arrives at truth upon any subject till it has first reached the extremity of error.
--Percy

  
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