Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 56 (9170 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,373 Year: 4,630/9,624 Month: 405/1,096 Week: 0/110 Day: 0/6 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 7 of 1053 (750324)
02-13-2015 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ThinAirDesigns
02-13-2015 8:31 AM


If I can get them to consider 20,000 years it blows their familiar model to bits and that's all I need — the sky is the limit after that. I really think dendrochronology may be the key to this, followed by C14 (I can hear them howl already lol), varves and ice cores.
I think your list is pretty good. Actually if you get them out to about 30,000 years you can talk about those famous cave paintings in France and Spain that put intelligent life well beyond dates associated with Adam and Eve.
Astronomy is another area where the conflicts with a 6000 year old universe and reality is pretty stark.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-13-2015 8:31 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-13-2015 9:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 1053 (750561)
02-18-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by RAZD
02-17-2015 8:58 AM


Re: A astronomy related thought
kbertsche mentions sn1987a. There are several threads on this forum that discuss this supernova event, and it is a special case ideal for your questions: this star exploded twice -- the first time it threw off a layer of gas that expanded away from the star, the second was the nova event.
A super nova event, actually. A nova event is the throwing off of gas by stars that are too small to go supernova.
In addition, SN1987a helps address other YEC questions such as 'How do we know that the speed of light has been constant over time?' and 'Isn't it just an assumption that decay rates are constants'. We get a data point on those issues 170,000 years ago.
Another good resource for people who would devote time to pursuing astronomical arguments is the Wikipedia article covering the techniques for measuring the distance to stars. It gives some pretty good support to the idea that the visible universe is way larger that a 6000 light years bubble around our solar system.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2015 8:58 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-18-2015 11:08 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 86 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2015 4:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 1053 (750614)
02-19-2015 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ThinAirDesigns
02-17-2015 9:36 AM


Re: A astronomy related thought
quote:
For I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who endowed us with senses, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Any fundy worth his salt can provide you with half a dozen or so Bible verses warning of the folly of relying on 'human understanding' without even opening a concordance. Many of them have internalized these verses based on years of ignoring evidence. As bizarre as it might seem to people who practice science, technology, or engineering to make their living, you can actually function at a high level in this society without understanding (or even despite totally rejecting) the science taught in junior high school.
I sometimes find myself celebrating even the tiniest knowledge breakthroughs in a manner disproportionate to any real accomplishment in a fundy's education. I recommend extreme patience and a substantial amount of humility when pursuing educating a YEC. It isn't worth losing a friend over this stuff.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-17-2015 9:36 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-19-2015 8:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 1053 (750704)
02-21-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ThinAirDesigns
02-20-2015 7:00 PM


. But yet when I look at the formula provided, I don't see any utilized ratio, only the %C14 is input to the formula. What am I missing?
The word 'compared' in the following sentence (Emphasis added by me) means to take a ratio:
quote:
where ln is the natural logarithm, Nf/No is the percent of carbon-14 in the sample compared to the amount in living tissue, and t1/2 is the half-life of carbon-14 (5,700 years).
So if the amount of c-14 in the original sample was .5% and in the final measurement was 0.05%, the Nf/No is 0.05%/0.5% or 0.10. So Nf/No is the ratio of two percentage numbers.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-20-2015 7:00 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 9:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 1053 (750722)
02-21-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by ThinAirDesigns
02-21-2015 9:10 AM


Yes, but it appears to me that the 'comparison' they are making is not between C14 and C12, but between the C14 in the aged sample with the C14 in a theoretical un-aged sample.
Assuming that to be true, then the comparison is still a ratio, which is the question that you asked. But in what units is the C14 measured? Clearly when taking a ratio, the two units of measure must be the same. Let's focus on what is being compared...
quote:
percent of carbon-14 in the sample compared to the amount in living tissue
To take a ratio, or to make a meaningful comparison, both of these numbers must be expressed in the same units, or in the same non unit quantity such as percent, or some other fraction relating the C14 and C12. The term 'amount' must be taken as meaning the same type of number as the percentage, or we cannot meaningfully make a comparison. So what is being described here is actually a ratio of ratios. (Or a ratio of percentages since a percentage is also a ratio)
Perhaps the word amount is giving you difficulty as it could suggest a bulk measurement.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 9:10 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 10:37 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 112 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 02-21-2015 11:31 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 1053 (750889)
02-23-2015 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by edge
02-23-2015 5:17 PM


Re: C14 generation/decay
ETA: I see that the chart shows declining 14C as the NCSE article states. I also see that the rate of production is still higher than an equilibrium state. That is because the production, while high, is declining eventually back to natural levels.
This does not make sense. There are places in this description where you are using the second derivative of the amount of C-14, when only the first derivative is appropriate. If you want to answer the question of why the amount of C-14 is declining, that happens only when the rate of production is less than the rate of removal.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by edge, posted 02-23-2015 5:17 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by edge, posted 02-24-2015 10:45 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 335 of 1053 (751966)
03-07-2015 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by edge
03-06-2015 9:12 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
You keep saying things like this, but you never say why it is so.
The answer ought to be pretty obvious.
No discovery can be inconsistent with the Flood, because Flood believers will just invent properties for massive amounts of water that can reproduce any phenomenon. Because the Flood happened in the past, and you weren't there, then whatever they say is beyond challenge.
Of course if you know anything about chemistry, geology or physics, that knowledge simply interferes with the spiritual discernment necessary to know the truth. Or something like that.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by edge, posted 03-06-2015 9:12 PM edge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 10:52 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 341 of 1053 (751978)
03-07-2015 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Faith
03-07-2015 10:52 AM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
I did not want to get into a discussion with edge because I didn't want to be on this thread at all
I don't know who is forcing you to post here. But I'd be happy to put a headlock on him/her so that you can act according to your own will.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 10:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 346 of 1053 (751985)
03-07-2015 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
03-07-2015 12:06 PM


Re: headlock
Misrepresent my argument and I do feel required for the sake of preserving my point of view to post here. Since you are one of the offenders let's see you perform a headlock on yourself.
Nonsense. You were already here posting Flood nonsense before I made any remarks about your participation. I suppose this is yet another example of Faith's revisionist view of history.
The only thing you need to 'force' your participation is to know that a Flood discussion exists.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 12:34 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 349 of 1053 (751990)
03-07-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by kbertsche
03-07-2015 12:28 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Floods can sort material by particle size or by density. But they can't sort material by chemical composition (or by isotopic concentration)!
Iridium is fairly unique with respect to density. Almost nothing is more dense. I'm not sure you've quite made your point here.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by kbertsche, posted 03-07-2015 12:28 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by kbertsche, posted 03-07-2015 1:21 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 353 of 1053 (751994)
03-07-2015 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by kbertsche
03-07-2015 1:21 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
But the asteroid impact hypothesis does not postulate an asteroid made of pure Ir.
Right. But one of your points was the discredit of a 'flood hypothesis'. You said that material being sorted by density was understandable. Well, iridium is really dense.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by kbertsche, posted 03-07-2015 1:21 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 354 of 1053 (751995)
03-07-2015 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Faith
03-07-2015 1:46 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
But then I'd like to know exactly what the "iridium layer" is composed of. Not pure iridium but some iron, and what about the "clay" it's part of?
Why don't you tell us? One of the criticisms of 'Creation Science' is that no one cannot discovery anything by employing it. Creation Science is limited to 'explaining away' anomalies that contradict creation and flood stories.
If Creation Science really worked it ought to be able to predict stuff like this.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 1:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 2:32 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 421 of 1053 (752090)
03-08-2015 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by Faith
03-08-2015 12:42 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
There are creationists who are scientists who may do this rethinking, but otherwise we have to look for ways to reconcile it with the time factor and other information the Bible gives us.
Very funny. Particularly after denying operating in exactly this way. Unfortunately none of the explanations you come up with can withstand the slightest scientific scrutiny. That why Creation Science is 10% assertion and 90% denial.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Faith, posted 03-08-2015 12:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 422 of 1053 (752091)
03-08-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
03-07-2015 2:32 PM


Re: Iridium boundary layer
Maybe Creation Science can predict and explain a lot of things I'm not personally able to do since I'm not a scientist.
Feel free to quote someone who knows better. But the truth is that Creation Science is purely about explaining away real science. Real science dictates what creationists have to make up stories about.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 03-07-2015 2:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 425 of 1053 (752095)
03-08-2015 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by ThinAirDesigns
03-07-2015 7:26 PM


Re: Frustration with the web of YEC lies
In my dealings so far with my YEC family I have been able to score valuable points in two ways:
1: Show that the YEC sites and speakers regularly/usually/overwhelmingly quote mine in a blatantly dishonest manner.
Probably the best tactic of all. In fact, it is the easily discernible lies that are the reason why many Christians despise lying ass Creation Science.
hey don't understand the terminology in science papers and so they simply look for a sentence that sounds like it can be used as a weapon against OE and lift it off the page and swing it around like it's a sharp sword.
There aren't any creationists here anymore who bother doing any substantial research, but many of the ones who have done so have no shame at being caught at quote mining. The more brazen insist that it is not their job to vet what they post.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-07-2015 7:26 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024