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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 933 of 1053 (768866)
09-14-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 932 by Dr Adequate
09-14-2015 3:42 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, that's wrong
You do not explain the even layering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 932 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-14-2015 3:42 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 934 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-14-2015 3:53 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 935 of 1053 (768873)
09-14-2015 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 934 by Tanypteryx
09-14-2015 3:53 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, that's wrong
Yes, it's been tectonically jostled but the layers were clearly originally laid down flat and of a pretty even thickness. Much like any other tectonically jostled series of sedimentary layers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 934 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-14-2015 3:53 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 945 of 1053 (769277)
09-18-2015 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 944 by Admin
09-18-2015 2:32 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information, that's wrong
I'm only trying to discourage ridiculous already refuted arguments, such as that sedimentary layers always deposit horizontally regardless of the slope of the surface they're deposited upon.
Since this has become a rule, I will not be back. It was proved that a layer can be deposited on a slope, at least in a small tank, but there is no way the strata of the Geologic Column anywhere deposited except horizontally, according to Steno's Law, and I will not be forced to deny this by that little experiment.
Thank you and good bye.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 944 by Admin, posted 09-18-2015 2:32 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 979 of 1053 (782270)
04-21-2016 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 970 by ThinAirDesigns
04-21-2016 4:41 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
I have also wanted to find information about the full range of the various strata and/or time periods associated with them. A few years ago herebedragons posted THIS, illustrating four time periods in relation to North America. The illustrations have become distorted for some reason.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by edge, posted 04-21-2016 10:04 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 988 of 1053 (782298)
04-22-2016 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 984 by edge
04-21-2016 10:04 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Well, considering that YECS do not recognize that these time periods exist, it is no wonder that it is a mystery to them. However, there is little doubt that they exist and that they are associated with major geological changes.
Who said it is a mystery? I find those illustrations to be very interesting and useful. The only problem is that they don't show what particular sediment occurs where. It might be all one sediment or it might not. It may not be terribly important, but it's something it would be nice to know. I know that in the Grand Canyon the Cambrian is Tapeats sandstone, the Mississippian is redwall limestone, the Permian is Kaibab limestone and so on, and that all of these cover a number of states at least. It would be nice to have charts that show both the time period and the sedimentary rock associated with it all over the world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 989 of 1053 (782300)
04-22-2016 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by dwise1
04-21-2016 11:20 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
In one of his articles I read, he repeated the false idea of absolutely gradual building of the strata (ie, take a system of strata representing some millions of years, so "that must mean that each layer was built up by this miniscule fraction of an inch each and every year"); even a first-semester geology student should have known better and here he was already a graduate student --
But this incremental buildup idea is what one just naturally gets from the usual presentation of the formation of the strata. In fact if there is an accepted understanding of rapid deposition for all or some of them I've never encountered it except as rejoinders in the debate here. You say Austin should have known better as a geology graduate student but clearly he didn't get that information as a student. There is no reason to accuse him of lying. He didn't get that information as a student.
But it's also quite an odd idea to think that there could have been a period of very rapid deposition that happened to trap and fossilize some particular creatures, and that is all that is preserved of an entire time period of hundreds of millions of years. If that occurred once or twice it might not be too odd, but so many of the time periods are characterized by a very particular sediment with very particular fossils. ALL Tapeats sandstone, ALL Redwall limestone etc etc. And they often have such nice neat razor-straight contacts too.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 994 of 1053 (782320)
04-22-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 993 by PaulK
04-22-2016 9:08 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
There are other places in the canyon where it looks a lot more homogeneous, but be that as it may, taking your information as correct, there is still a huge oddness to this, to the idea that any deposition of sediments as a unit, whatever its composition, could represent a time period of hundreds of millions of years. What is needed is an explanation of the mechanics of this deposition, how it fits into the time frame and so on. How come there is so much basic similarity to all the strata for instance, deposition or depositions that each represent hundreds of millions of years of a particular identified time period that of course vary in depth but not greatly, maintaining an appearance of general similarity even though they represent separate time periods of hundreds of millions of years each. Where is the detailed discussion of the mechanics of the deposition, the explanation for how one time period came to an end and the next began and so on. And would you please acknowledge that as a representation of the history of this planet this whole sequence of sediments, each identified as a unit unto itself with its own fossil contents or lack of them, with an identifiable start and stop, is really very strange?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 993 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 9:08 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 996 of 1053 (782328)
04-22-2016 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 995 by PaulK
04-22-2016 9:58 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
OK 540 million years for the whole geo column from Cambrian to present.
Well, you're going to stick to your story and deny the obvious strangeness of the idea that current processes could at all represent those that built the geo column, or the strangeness of the idea that different time periods are represented by identifiable different blocks of sedimentary rocks. Oh well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 995 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 9:58 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 998 of 1053 (782331)
04-22-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 997 by PaulK
04-22-2016 10:16 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
Well I wish somebody would acknowledge the strangeness. It's hard to put into words any better than I have done already, but some honest contemplation of the facts should make it apparent. There is just no way to rationally explain how discreet time periods over the history of the earth got marked by clearcut sediment depositions that start at the beginning of the period and end at the end of it.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 999 by jar, posted 04-22-2016 10:57 AM Faith has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1001 of 1053 (782343)
04-22-2016 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1000 by PaulK
04-22-2016 11:14 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
the rocks are not is neat and tidy as you think. Not nearly.
But they are a lot more neat and tidy than they should be in any case. In fact they shouldn't be at ALL neat and tidy really, there shouldn't be ANY correlation between the beginning and end of identifiable sedimentary rocks and the beginning and end of identifiable time periods with their supposedly peculiar flora and fauna. There is absolutely nothing to make sense of that on the OE model.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1000 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 11:14 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 11:28 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1004 of 1053 (782348)
04-22-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1003 by PaulK
04-22-2016 11:28 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
The north wall of the Grand Canyon where it is most neat and regular as seen from the south rim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1003 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 11:28 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1006 of 1053 (782354)
04-22-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1005 by PaulK
04-22-2016 11:36 AM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
All of them. Every single boundary that marks off both a sedimentary deposit and a time period.
But what I'm hoping is that someone else will come along who simply gets what I'm talking about from what I've already said. I've explained it as well as I'm able. There's no point in trying harder to convince somebody who is determined not to be convinced, even if I had more I could say about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1005 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 11:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1007 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2016 12:19 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1008 of 1053 (782357)
04-22-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by PaulK
04-22-2016 12:19 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
So where is the strangeness ?
In there being any correlation whatever between a rock type and a time period.
In there being a pattern of time periods marked by rock types that repeats up the entire geo column.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 1013 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2016 1:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1012 of 1053 (782369)
04-22-2016 1:23 PM


the strangeness argument
I have described as well as I can what I mean by the strangeness. I wish I had more support to offer, I would love to have more support to offer. As it is I can only hope someone will see what I mean from what I've already said. If I come up with a better way of supporting what I mean so that it would be clearer to others, I will be more than happy, I will be ecstatic, to be able to offer it. Meanwhile, what I've already said says it for me, I can only hope someone else will see it the same way.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1524 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1014 of 1053 (782376)
04-22-2016 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1013 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2016 1:43 PM


Re: The geological range of the tapeats / redwall
You have repeatedly been informed that any given time period will have lots of rock types. So it seems that the "strangeness" here is all in your head.
I get "informed" of all kinds of things that totally miss the point, as you are missing it here, as usual. "Lots of rock types" that nevertheless are identifiable rock types that define identifiable time periods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1013 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2016 1:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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