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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 586 of 1053 (753669)
03-21-2015 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by RAZD
03-21-2015 2:50 PM


Re: Flood sermon
And why did no marsupials stay in the middle east?
Maybe they did. Look at the sheath of this burial knife.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 587 of 1053 (753703)
03-21-2015 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by ThinAirDesigns
03-21-2015 10:21 AM


Re: Flood sermon
I only had 10-15 mins with the speaker(C) so could only cover a fraction of what I would have liked to, so can just reproduce his bald assertions. He was not announced as affiliated with any YEC organisation - he just seems to have done his own reading. He indicated he may be back later so I may be able to engage with him again.

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 588 of 1053 (753707)
03-21-2015 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by NoNukes
03-21-2015 2:15 PM


Re: Flood sermon
The post-Flood ice age is caused by the massive volcanism of Catastrophic Plate Tectonics heating the ocean so there is more evaporation, all the volcanic ash blanketing the sun, ergo more snow and an ice age! I guess Noah had special cool weather grapes for his vineyard!

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 589 of 1053 (753708)
03-21-2015 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by Pollux
03-21-2015 6:49 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood; it would have taken some time for the cooling effects to develop into the Ice Age.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-21-2015 6:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 594 by Pollux, posted 03-21-2015 7:20 PM Faith has replied
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 590 of 1053 (753710)
03-21-2015 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Faith writes:
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood
And the scientific evidence for this is?
JB

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Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 591 of 1053 (753711)
03-21-2015 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by Pollux
03-21-2015 6:44 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Thanks for the info.
JB

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 592 of 1053 (753712)
03-21-2015 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by ThinAirDesigns
03-21-2015 6:53 PM


Re: Flood sermon
What's the scientific evidence that erosion can render a hard spiky lumpy surface flat and horizontal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-21-2015 6:53 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 593 of 1053 (753715)
03-21-2015 7:14 PM


Cerro Blanco whales
"C" did mention an interesting deposit of whale fossils at Cerro Blanco. There are hundreds of fossils many articulated and some still with attached baleen, which apparently separates quite quickly after death. He implied that it indicated they were all buried quickly by the Flood.
What I can glean from my reading only relatively few have intact baleen, they are mainly buried by a diatomaceous deposit which does not seem like a Flood deposit to me. However the reports' authors comment that the diatom development is unusually rapid.
Someone more knowledgeable on these matters than I am may be interested in checking it out and commenting.

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 594 of 1053 (753717)
03-21-2015 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Flood sermon
The post-Flood ice age is C's statement, not my idea.
Rapid Plate movement never happened. If it did and happened after the Flood, Noah would not have been able to stand up to plant his vineyard because of the continuous earthquakes.

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 Message 589 by Faith, posted 03-21-2015 6:51 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 595 of 1053 (753718)
03-21-2015 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by Pollux
03-21-2015 7:20 PM


Re: Flood sermon
No, all that would have happened is more than usual earthquakes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 596 of 1053 (753719)
03-21-2015 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Faith writes:
What's the scientific evidence that erosion can render a hard spiky lumpy surface flat and horizontal?
The processes and mechanisms by which hard spiky surfaces are gradually reduced to flat and horizontal are well established scientifically. They can even be witnessed year in and year out as the products of erosion are carried from the mountains (those hard spiky, lumpy things) to the meadows and deltas (those relatively flat horizontal things) via rivers, wind and slides. Gravity moves things from high points to low points - it's the law.
But on this thread, that's the only response you will get from me on an off topic you bring from the other thread.
Now, back to the topic of scientific evidence for your statement from this thread:
Faith writes:
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood
This is a thread discussing a curriculum based only on evidence, not bald assertions based on theology.
The evidence please.
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 597 of 1053 (753736)
03-21-2015 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 592 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:57 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Faith writes:
What's the scientific evidence that erosion can render a hard spiky lumpy surface flat and horizontal?
You really need to stop making really stupid assertions Faith.
You certainly should know by now that erosion does flatten surfaces. In fact the whole process of weathering/erosion is moving stuff from high places to low places until the surface is flat.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(4)
Message 598 of 1053 (753740)
03-21-2015 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Faith
03-21-2015 6:51 PM


Re: Flood sermon
Tectonic movement didn't begin until after the Flood; it would have taken some time for the cooling effects to develop into the Ice Age.
Faith, below is an easy-to-understand example that I use in my talk, "How Old Is God's Creation?" I'll try to present it as briefly as possible:
1) The "Pacific Plate" is currently moving in a NW direction at about 3.1 inches per year (measured by satellite).
2) Kilauea is an active volcano in Hawaii, on the Pacific Plate.
3) As one travels NW along the Hawaiian Island chain, extending to the Emperor Seamounts which extend toward Japan, one sees a chain of dormant volcanos. Each one dates progressively older (by argon-argon dating, which is a very accurate dating method for igneous rock). Near Japan the date of these volcanos is about 80 million years.
4) We hypothesize that there is a thin "hot spot" in the mantle underneath Kilauea, with the Pacific Plate moving over it. This hot spot has created all of these volcanos over the past 80 million years.
5) Based on this assumption, we can calculate the historical rate and direction of motion of the Pacific Plate. We find that it has moved at a rate of 2.6 to 3.6 inches per year, with a direction varying between NW and WNW. This historical rate of motion nicely brackets the present rate of motion.
6) Thus the Hawaiian Island and Emperor Seamount chain reveals not only an old age for the earth, but also a long history of how things were formed. {BTW, YECs often claim that historical events are not real science because they cannot be repeated. But here is a clear example of a historical event (formation of volcanic islands) that has been repeated many, many times over the past 80 million years.}
If you want to claim that tectonic motion did not begin until after the Flood, it seems to me that you only have a couple of directions to go, both of which are problematic for you:
1) you could claim that the rest of the Hawaiian Island and Emperor Seamount chain was not formed by the hypothesized Pacific Plate motion over a hot spot. But if this is so, why the nice linear progression in Ar-Ar dates of the island chains? And why does the apparent historical rate of motion match the present rate? This would mean that God has placed not only a false apparent age, but also a false apparent history in the rocks!
2) you could claim that the Pacific Plate motion in the past was about 30,000 times higher than at present, so that all of these islands could have been formed after the Flood. But you would also have to invoke an "accelerated nuclear decay" (or something equivalent) of about the same factor of 30,000 to explain why the Ar-Ar dates extend back to 80 million years. And you would also have to explain why the Pacific Plate motion slowed down a factor of 30,000 in the recent past, and why the nuclear decay rate slowed a factor of 30,000 to its present value. Not only that, you would have to explain why and how both of these unrelated phenomena changed in lockstep, exactly the same amount and at exactly the same rate, so that when we look at the Ar-Ar dates it appears as if the Pacific Plate has been moving at a fairly constant rate for the past 80 million years. Again, this would mean that God has placed a false apparent history in the rocks.
Bottom line: if we are honest with the evidence, we will realize that the record of nature not only gives evidence of age, but also of history. This is very difficult to fit into a YEC view without implying that God was deceptive.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 599 of 1053 (753746)
03-21-2015 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by kbertsche
03-21-2015 8:19 PM


Re: Flood sermon
This is an excellent set of evidence.
Recent work suggest that the bend in the chain was caused by the hot spot moving south till it reached its present spot.
Several other chains show the same relation between distance travelled and RM time, including a chain of extinct volcanoes up eastern Australia.
"But it is a matter of interpretation!"

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2373 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 600 of 1053 (753748)
03-21-2015 9:04 PM


Humans and psychology of scale
One of the things I'm noticing in my discussions with my YEC family and friends (and by watching Faith), is how naturally bad humans are at comprehending scale.
My family is heavy into the health care business (SDA's often are). Nurses, lab techs, EMTs, therapists, etc. They are far too knowledgeable of how organisms adapt (say to antibiotics) to claim it doesn't happen. To a person they all now say "micro-evolution happens, but not macro-evolution". They can't connect that the only difference between micro and macro is elapsed time.
It's a similar deal thinking of erosion -- we can all stand by a swollen river in the spring and know that there are particles of earth being moved downstream -- we can SEE them in the water, it's happening in front of our eyes. All that visual evidence and the connection still isn't made that what's happening is the mountains are steadily but surely being worn down, carried to the valley and deposited in the low spots. Taking the next step is just realizing that micro-erosion on a macro timescale can do amazing things.
I don't think humans comprehend time all that well when taken far out of our lifespan range. An example of this would be the difference in the comprehension of time for me as a young child vs a 50s adult. I remember in my late single digit years hearing on the radio of some infrastructure construction project (dam or bridge or...) that had not started yet and whose planned completion date was as I recall, 7 years in the future. I remember thinking "WHAT!!!??? People make plans SEVEN YEARS IN ADVANCE???" That was just crazy talk to someone not yet 10. To a 3yo, the next birthday will never get here. At my age, the calendar spins through with ease.
Imagining the macro (millions and bilions of years) just isn't our natural forte and yet if we can grasp that, it easily explains what we see here on earth through very natural processes - the very SAME natural processes that we accept on a micro scale. If one can stretch the timescale in the mind for just moment and peek out at the world, suddenly the evidence all around us falls into place.
I once heard someone describe how as humans our assessments of risk are based naturally on our lifespan. They pointed out that if we were capable of living to be a million years old, no one would ever go swimming. Statistically, swimmers would never reach old age but in time would succumb to the hazards of the water essentially without fail (I've done the math ... other than expected anomalies, they're right). Crossing the street would be even worse.
The psychology of OE is difficult, especially if YE is ingrained at a young age. One of the challenges I face is figuring out ways to get them to allow themselves to just imagine for a moment how things *might be* if, just IF the world was not young.
And Faith, since the discussion of this psychology is core to this thread, you are welcome (by my standards, can't comment on the mods standards) to comment as I consider that aspect to be on topic.
JB

  
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