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Author Topic:   Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 601 of 1053 (753750)
03-21-2015 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by kbertsche
03-21-2015 8:19 PM


Re: Flood sermon
kbertsche writes:
Bottom line: if we are honest with the evidence, we will realize that the record of nature not only gives evidence of age, but also of history. This is very difficult to fit into a YEC view without implying that God was deceptive.
This is one of the areas that I'm fortunate with the group I'm trying to reach. Each one has readily acknowledged that they don't believe in a god that has placed evidence in/on the earth to lead us astray as a test of faith. That just leaves it up to the evidence which falls squarely in the OE camp. It's all a matter of a willingness to be open to the evidence and I'm seeing more and more and more of that. It's exciting actually.
JB

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 602 of 1053 (754171)
03-24-2015 8:04 PM


Credit where credit is due
Quick question for those with experience in such.
When I'm writing script for curriculum video, I certainly understand the importance of crediting quotes I use. What to you do in the case of Wikipedia 'quotes'? Sometimes Wikipedia describes something quite well and I might like to just read a paragraph from the entry. I can't exactly credit the author(s) because - well, because it's Wikipedia.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
JB
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 603 of 1053 (754187)
03-24-2015 10:01 PM


So I'm working on my first scripts for the curriculum. It feels like a small step in a VERY long journey. I want to have a substantial percentage of the series done before I post any of the videos or create a web site so for reference I would guess I'm at least year or more out of any produced final product. Still much to learn and much to do.
As a note, I will not be attempting to create an earth science curriculum that will compete with those say at the local community college. What I'm trying to do is create something that will *prepare* wavering fundamentalist youth (and older of course) for those basic CC science courses. Right now if they were even brave enough to sign up, they would feel like aliens in the classroom and might even simply walk away during the first class either out of embarrassment or from programming. In short, my goal is to produce a product that can gently walk them towards a confidence in the scientific method and a realization of just how badly they've been lied to. From there their own curiosity will determine their future.
Following are a few examples of topics that I want to start out with. As we've talked about on this thread before, I can't start talking geology or dendrochronology with them until I get them to understand some basic principles. Several of these topics were suggested by thread contributors and I am grateful for the suggestions (then, now and in the future). Clearly, psychology plays a huge part in these early topics. It is only by laying the groundwork of confidence that I will be able to get the to accept any of the later evidence. I must overturn almost all of what they know of science and I must start out entirely using examples that they have not been programmed to reject.
The Scientific method
Skepticism: 'authority figures' are questioned every day in science.
We don't follow the teachings of Darwin: how science stands or falls on the evidence, not on the person.
Facts vs scientific hypothesis vs scientific theory vs law
Science is never settled (and that's a good thing)
Inductive and deductive reasoning
Consilience/convergence of evidence
I'm really open to more suggestions on topics in the general area of the above or changes to the order or content of the topics I have mentioned. While I'm grateful to all, I'm especially appreciative of those contributors who are sensitive to the position these people find themselves in - programmed and ignorant, but cautiously thirsty for knowledge.
Thanks
JB

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 604 of 1053 (754197)
03-24-2015 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by ThinAirDesigns
03-24-2015 8:04 PM


Re: Credit where credit is due
Quick question for those with experience in such.
When I'm writing script for curriculum video, I certainly understand the importance of crediting quotes I use. What to you do in the case of Wikipedia 'quotes'? Sometimes Wikipedia describes something quite well and I might like to just read a paragraph from the entry. I can't exactly credit the author(s) because - well, because it's Wikipedia.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
JB
Good question! I have no idea what is normally done for curricula videos. But I can give you some ideas on what is normally done for scholarly writing in both science and theology; I would suggest doing some sort of abbreviated version of these for your videos.
Scholarly papers can be written in a number of different styles, all of which are somewhat different. Most of my scientific papers have followed the JACoW style, but their style guide doesn't clearly say anything about references to websites or other electronic resources. Neither does the American Physical Society style guide. In professional scientific publications, websites are rarely if ever referred to.
But scholarly papers in the humanities sometimes refer to websites. In the past many disciplines used Chicago or Turabian style, but apparently the most widely used style for the humanities today is APA Style (this is what I used for my most recent seminary papers). Here are the pertinent sections from the APA style guide:
quote:
Citing an Entire Web Site
It is necessary to list your date of access because web postings are often updated, and information available on one date may no longer be available later. If a URL is required or you chose to include one, be sure to include the complete address for the site. (Note: The following examples do not include a URL because MLA no longer requires a URL to be included.)
Remember to use n.p. if no publisher name is available and n.d. if no publishing date is given.
Editor, author, or compiler name (if available). Name of Site. Version number. Name of institution/organization affiliated with the site (sponsor or publisher), date of resource creation (if available). Medium of publication. Date of access.
The Purdue OWL Family of Sites. The Writing Lab and OWL at Purdue and Purdue U, 2008. Web. 23 Apr. 2008.
Felluga, Dino. Guide to Literary and Critical Theory. Purdue U, 28 Nov. 2003. Web. 10 May 2006.
A Page on a Web Site
For an individual page on a Web site, list the author or alias if known, followed by the information covered above for entire Web sites. Remember to use n.p. if no publisher name is available and n.d. if no publishing date is given.
"How to Make Vegetarian Chili." eHow. Demand Media, n.d. Web. 24 Feb. 2009.

For a video curriculum, I would use some sort of abbreviated version of the APA style. At a minimum you should probably include the name of the Wikipedia article (in quotes), the name Wikipedia (in italics), and the date that you accessed Wikipedia.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 605 of 1053 (754198)
03-25-2015 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by ThinAirDesigns
03-24-2015 10:01 PM


What is Science?
The Scientific method
Skepticism: 'authority figures' are questioned every day in science.
We don't follow the teachings of Darwin: how science stands or falls on the evidence, not on the person.
Facts vs scientific hypothesis vs scientific theory vs law
Science is never settled (and that's a good thing)
Inductive and deductive reasoning
Consilience/convergence of evidence
FYI, the best descriptions that I've seen on these topics are:
The Clockwork Image by Donald MacKay. (Or alternate link). This book is long out of print, but I highly recommended it. The author was a British evangelical Christian, and the book describes science from a Christian perspective. This book contains an extremely good and very understandable multi-chapter description of science. It is probably the best description of science that I have ever seen. If you can pick up a used copy, it might be helpful for both you and your audience.
The article "What is Science?" by Helen Quinn, published in Physics Today. Helen is a very good scientist and is interested in science education.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-24-2015 10:01 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-25-2015 1:04 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 606 of 1053 (754202)
03-25-2015 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by kbertsche
03-25-2015 12:08 AM


Re: What is Science?
It is probably the best description of science that I have ever seen.
* drums fingers on desk, awaits dissent *

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by kbertsche, posted 03-25-2015 12:08 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2157 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 607 of 1053 (754204)
03-25-2015 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 606 by Dr Adequate
03-25-2015 1:04 AM


Re: What is Science?
It is probably the best description of science that I have ever seen.
* drums fingers on desk, awaits dissent *
If you (or anyone else here) can suggest a better description of science, please let us all know. I'm sure that better descriptions must exist, but I'm not aware of them.
If you (or anyone else here) has problems with MacKay's description of science, please explain what you disagree with.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-25-2015 1:04 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 608 of 1053 (754233)
03-25-2015 11:54 AM


Appreciation
Thanks kbertsche for both the style input and the science book/article suggestions. I read the article and found it useful. It will take a bit longer to access the book obviously.
Appreciated.
JB

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 609 of 1053 (754235)
03-25-2015 12:06 PM


Due to content differences, I'm going to have to use a variety of production styles in my videos -- a mix of still photos, other video, screen capture etc.. With the videos that are describing and illustrating principles I'm leaning towards using the 'whiteboard' style software with a voice over. Sort of like this one by NASA

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


Message 610 of 1053 (754236)
03-25-2015 12:12 PM


Consilience script draft
First round try at a script. Want to keep these videos to around 10-12 minutes. Critique and suggestions always welcome. Little suggestions, big suggestions, wipe the board clean and start over suggestions are all good - just don't worry about typos ... too far to go to worry about that now.
Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this video I want to illustrate something very important in science and history -- the principle of converging evidence or consilience as it’s known in science. While it might sound like a word from a Monty Python comedy skit, consilience says that evidence from independent, unrelated sources can converge to strengthen conclusions we make. This means that when multiple sources of evidence are in agreement, the conclusion can be really strong even when the individual sources may not seem as strong on their own.
Another way to describe this principle is that it’s based on the ‘unity of knowledge’, meaning that if we measure the same thing several different ways, it should lead to answers that are very similar if not identical. Let’s take the Golden Gate Bridge for instance and measure its length using a laser rangefinder, or satellite imaging or even a simple yardstick. If those three methods are any good at measuring things, they will all three return a measurement that’s close to the same.
Since each method relies on different natural phenomenon, if one method is in error it is extremely unlikely to be in error in the same way as the other two and a difference in result will be seen. For the same reason, if independent dating methods in geochronology are credible they should give us similar dates when tested independently. The principle is applied comparatively to entirely different fields of science where the results from chemistry or astronomy shouldn't contradict a result in geology, etc.
When several independent methods agree, this is strong evidence that *none* of the methods are in error and the conclusion is correct. For a group of converging measurements to be wrong, the errors would need to be similar for all measurements taken, which is extremely unlikely. This is how scientific theories reach a high degree of confidence — over time they build up a large body of evidence which converges to the same conclusions.
While thinking about how to illustrate this principle, I realized that we use consilience regularly while navigating from place to place in our daily lives. If we accept a single piece of evidence as golden, we might just end up knocking on the wrong door. If we look at the whole of the evidence and how it may or may not converge, we will far more likely be successful.
As example, let’s say you and your hiking partner Shay are going for an outing. She has invited her sister Nico and you are to meet them both at Nico’s house — a house you have never seen. Really all you know about Nico is that she is recently married for the first time and according to Shay, she works as an architect and her husband is an IT professional.
In a voice mail, Shay gives you rough directions and the address as 123 Smith St. She tells you that Nico’s house is an old but recently restored Victorian classic with green trim and is located right next door to large white Presbyterian Church. Shays tells you that she is going over early and will be there when you arrive. You enter the address into your navigation app and head across town when it’s time.
You follow the instructions on your smart phone and soon enough you are at the prescribed address — The street name is correct and right there under the porch light it says 123. Even as you earlier turned onto Smith St, you noticed that you were entering a newer residential tract and you began to feel a sense of unease regarding the accuracy of the directions. You had certainly imagined an older part of town with perhaps larger trees would accompany such a landmark home. The trim on house before you is certainly some shade of green and there is a vague sense of Victorian about the design, but the only church nearby is brick, Baptist and across the street. There is an older car in the drive, kids toys strewn amongst the weeds in the lawn and Shay’s car is nowhere in sight.
Do you knock on the door? You might give Shay a call and ask why her car is not there. You might listen to the voice mail and confirm the address. What you likely won’t do it just happily move forward assuming you have found the correct house. Why not? Well, the lines of evidence have not converged to one safe conclusion. There is a feeling of disarray among the combined indicators. There is no consilience of evidence.
Of the different pieces of evidence available, only the numbers on the side of the house fit in with the entire expected picture when thinking of a recently married professional couple with no kids. Sure enough, when you check the address, you realize that it was Smitt St. and not Smith St. that should have been entered into your smart phone. One letter makes all the difference and it turns out that Smitt Street is just a few blocks over.
Let’s pause for a moment and consider this case where the surroundings or what we might call ‘secondary evidence’ didn't fit in with what most would call the ‘primary’ evidence — the address. Even though at the time you believed your location was totally in line with the primary evidence, you realized your error simply by looking at the convergence or consilience of the other lines of evidence. When you took the principle of consilience into account, you were able to recognize that the chances of an error in your primary evidence were extremely high.
Let’s flip the situation. You immediately reprogrammed your smart phone for the proper address and followed its instructions. Once it told you that you were in the vicinity, you looked around and saw a large white church surrounded by decidedly early 20th century homes. As described, a cute, well maintained classic Victorian design home with green trim sat right next door to the stately church. Sure enough, Shay’s car was parked next to the curb right by the steps leading up to the door. You parked your car behind Shay’s, walked up the steps and confidently rang the bell — quick as a flash you are inside and as it turns out, you never even looked to see if the number on the mailbox was indeed 123 — you didn't need to.
So how do these two situations differ? In both cases you considered multiple lines of evidence and how they converged to come to an easy conclusion regarding the unity of knowledge. Each individual piece of evidence was considered as part of the whole. Not just the address, but the size of the trees, the style of house, the nearby church, kids toys, Shay's car etc. In the first case, the convergence of the secondary evidence was strong enough in opposition of the primary evidence to overpower the primary evidence and cause you to correctly question its validity. In the second case, the consilience of the secondary evidence was so strong in favor as to render the primary evidence literally unnecessary. Shay could have given you nothing more than the description and turn by turn directions and without knowing the street address you would have still knocked on the same door.
Using the principle of consilience, we can much more quickly gain or lose levels of confidence in an idea, assertion, conclusion or hypothesis. Consilience is often critical in elevating a hypothesis to a theory. More independent lines of investigation reaching the same result lead to higher confidence in the ultimate conclusion. If one line of evidence produces a result that is at odds with the consilience of other multiple investigations, it’s likely that the error will be found in the single line of evidence rather than in the converged streams.
Consilience does not forbid deviations, but science wisely doesn't thoughtlessly allow one piece of evidence to overthrow a large body of converged work. It first focuses on learning and understanding why the single stream differs. Perhaps there’s an error. Perhaps there’s a misunderstanding. Perhaps discovered knowledge will lead to coherent integration of the odd stream. This was aptly demonstrated in our navigation example.
Science is never settled. Science is also not a democracy and we would do well to remember that scientific consensus is not the same as political consensus. Where the former is achieved through thoughtful investigation, the accumulation of independently converged evidence and intelligent discussion, the latter is often arrived at through a quagmire of opinion, compromise and presuppositional bias. Consilience and scientific consensus are a numbers game of evidence while political consensus is a numbers game of adherents. Consensus is great, but a scientific consensus built on anything other than consilience of evidence is hollow ground and not good science.
So how do we tell the difference between scientific consensus and political consensus? We must rely on that most productive backbone of science — the prediction. Good science leads to accurate and useful predictions. Consensus without testable predictions is mere dogma.
Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2015 11:47 AM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 611 of 1053 (754380)
03-26-2015 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by ThinAirDesigns
03-24-2015 8:04 PM


Re: Credit where credit is due
When I'm writing script for curriculum video, I certainly understand the importance of crediting quotes I use. What to you do in the case of Wikipedia 'quotes'? Sometimes Wikipedia describes something quite well and I might like to just read a paragraph from the entry. I can't exactly credit the author(s) because - well, because it's Wikipedia.
The system I use/d for all websites in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 (see Message 2):
quote:
References
  1. Anonymous "California's Ancient Bristlecone Pines, The Oldest Living Things" American West Travelogue, 1996-2007 ASA Consultants, Inc. accessed 10 Jan, 2007 from http://www.amwest-travel.com/awt_bristle.html
  2. Anonymous "Methuselah (tree)" Wikipedia. updated 9 Jan 2007. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Methuselah (tree) - Wikipedia
  3. Anonymous "Prometheus (tree)" Wikipedia. updated 7 Jan 2007. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Prometheus (tree) - Wikipedia
  4. Anonymous "The "Prometheus" Story" Great Basin On-line. updated 2 Aug 2002. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Requested Page Not Found (404)
  5. Earle, Christopher J. "Pinus longaeva D.K. Bailey 1970" Gymnosperm Database. Last modified 28 Jan 2000. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Fachbereich Biologie : Universität Hamburg
  6. Grissino-Mayer , Henri D., "Ultimate Tree-Ring Web Pages " Department of Geography, The University of Tennessee. updated 28 Jun 2006. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/
  7. Miller, Leonard, "Dendrochronology" Sonic.net/bristlecone. updated 2 Jan 2005. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Dendrochronology
  8. Miller, Leonard, "The Ancient Bristlecone Pine" Sonic.net/bristlecone. updated 2 Jan 2005. accessed 10 Jan 2007 from Ancient Bristlecone Pine
Where possible, I have tried to follow the standard academic procedure for citing online publications, where if you last accessed this page on January 30, 2007, and used version 2 number 1, you would cite this as:
Smith, Paul "Age Correlations and An Old Earth: Bristlecone Pines." EvC Forum. Vers 2 no 1 updated 27 Jan 2007, accessed 30 Jan, 2007 from EvC Forum: Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1.
It is important to put the accessed date because websites (especially wiki) can be changed. Another common way to put the access date in brackets: [30JAN07] and I have also done webpages this way when the authorship is unknown:
Wikipedia.com, Methuselah, last modified 22 December 2013 , [2013, December 23]: Methuselah (tree) - Wikipedia
Likewise Images:
quote:
Note: all images used on this, and subsequent posts that this one refers to with links, have been copied to a mirror site - without any modification or any intent to take credit for them. In every case I reference the original site where they can be viewed in context and verified as needed. The only purpose to copying the images is to reduce band-width traffic on the original sites when these pages are accessed.
... and in case the website stops using the image.
Wiki does preserve the history of edits, unlike many websites, so date of access can be tracked and verified.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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 Message 602 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-24-2015 8:04 PM ThinAirDesigns has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 612 of 1053 (754394)
03-26-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by ThinAirDesigns
03-25-2015 12:12 PM


Re: Consilience script draft
A couple of small quibbles:
Another way to describe this principle is that it’s based on the ‘unity of knowledge’, meaning that if we measure the same thing several different ways, it should lead to answers that are very similar if not identical. Let’s take the Golden Gate Bridge for instance and measure its length using a laser rangefinder, or satellite imaging GPS or even a simple yardstick. If those All three methods are ways to approximate the distance, each one with different degrees of error, but if they are any good at measuring things, they will all three return a measurement that’s close to the same, within their different margins of error.
...
When several independent methods agree, this is strong evidence that *none* of the methods are in have significant error and the conclusion is likely correct. For a group of converging measurements to be wrong, the errors would need to be similar for all measurements taken, which is extremely unlikely. This is how scientific theories reach a high degree of confidence — over time they build up a large body of evidence which converges to the same conclusions.
Example lengths and margins of error would make a nice graphic:
----------------------------------|___X___| (laser rangefinder)
--------------------------------|___X___| (Satellite GPS)
--------------------------------------|__X__| (yardstick)
----------------------------------|__|X|_|
(two out of three likely, three out of three very likely actual value)
Notice how improving the accuracy of any one of these three methods does not significantly affect the consilience of all the methods.
Your example
While thinking about how to illustrate this principle, I realized that we use consilience regularly while navigating from place to place in our daily lives. ... and as it turns out, you never even looked to see if the number on the mailbox was indeed 123 — you didn't need to.
Waay too long: think of how you would draw it on the whiteboard ... likely with bullet points for the information, then use it as a checklist on first arrival.
Good start.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-25-2015 12:12 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-26-2015 12:40 PM RAZD has replied

  
ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


(1)
Message 613 of 1053 (754410)
03-26-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by RAZD
03-26-2015 11:47 AM


Re: Consilience script draft
RAZD, love your suggestions/edits on the measuring comparison.
As to the loooong example. Yeah, and realize that I'm open and looking for an example that can be used that is simpler and shorter. It does however have to be an example that doesn't involve things they immediately reject (and they immediately reject a LOT of things. LOL)
I value your input and ideas, now and future.
Thanks
JB

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 614 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2015 1:10 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 614 of 1053 (754413)
03-26-2015 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 613 by ThinAirDesigns
03-26-2015 12:40 PM


Re: Consilience and age rewrite
I value your input and ideas, now and future.
Works both ways. I am a something of an impasse on my rewrite of Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 with more emphasis on conscilience ... the problem is that I have only one source for lake varves vs 14C that extends beyond the tree rings (there are some short ones).
The varves and 14C levels show that the lower layers cannot be younger than the upper layers and that the trend of 14C from the tree rings continues in a general direction. There is also a second coring set that validates the earlier one, makes some adjustments and corrections, and extends the data slightly ... but it is still data from only one lake.
The best comparison I currently have is with marine varves in Cariaco Basin, Venezuela. The problem is that this involves the marine reservoir effect, so (1) there is an additional level of uncertainty with using the marine varves, and (2) I would rather use the differences between them to show the marine reservoir effect (and how it changes with time).
My next link is to ice layers for age -- and that means showing consilience between the lake varves
Any thoughts how I should handle this?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 613 by ThinAirDesigns, posted 03-26-2015 12:40 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

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ThinAirDesigns
Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 564
Joined: 02-12-2015


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Message 615 of 1053 (758250)
05-22-2015 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by RAZD
03-26-2015 1:10 PM


Re: Consilience and age rewrite
Hello RAZD. I'm sorry I didn't catch your request for suggestions above previously. I just now returned to ask a few research questions and I noticed your last post. Somehow I missed it from earlier.
My only comment on conscilience as it related to the varves is that while more sources from a given types are obviously better, even a single source from a divergent type that fits well with other types is of great value. In other words, I find confirming value greater in one set of varves added to the data set that I would find from *another* tree ring set.
As I understand varves, it's not often finding the needed components and conditions to product them and thus it's not likely that we will find a hundred other locations of use.
There is only one Chauvet Cave after all.
JB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by RAZD, posted 03-26-2015 1:10 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 617 by jar, posted 05-22-2015 8:08 PM ThinAirDesigns has replied

  
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