I belong to a FB group called "SDA Fight Club" where Seventh Day Adventists and Ex SDAs mingle and discuss topics that are typically controversial between the two groups (non-SDAs are allowed, but the topics tend to be SDA related).
With knowledge I've learned here on EVC (thanks everyone) and other places, I've been for a while now putting up a fair bit of material from the science world working towards educating members on both the pretend SDA science and the actual science science.
Following are the links to a 4 part series I just completed on reference dendrochronologies. So many here have helped me on this topic that I thought I would share. Also I know if I got something wrong this crew will correct me.
Anyone have the relevant original paper lying around and would be willing to share?
quote:Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container (with no added pressure) at 150 C for 28 days, and obtained high–grade black coal. R. Hayatsu, et al., Organic Geochemistry, 6:463471, 1984.
Can find paper behind paywall but again my local library can't touch it.
(Oh, and yes I know that the above description is not what I'll find in the paper -- that's a YEC description of what happened)
From email@example.com Sat Mar 17 23:51:53 2001 Path: newscene.com!newscene!newscene!novia!newsfeed.stanford.edu!ediacara.org!there.is.no.cabal From: firstname.lastname@example.org (F.C. Kuechmann) Newsgroups: talk.origins Subject: As the Cretin Sqirms Date: 17 Mar 2001 23:51:53 -0500 Organization: Brotherhood of Fratricidal Anarchists Lines: 220 Approved: email@example.com Message-ID: <1eqflo9.sg4erz5e4gamNfirstname.lastname@example.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: darwin.ediacara.org User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6 X-Complaints-To: email@example.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:51:44 PST Xref: newscene.com talk.origins:840548
Cretin Comedy: As the Cretin Sqirms
by F.C. Kuechmann
"...accepting a billions-of-years time-span for creation ... undermines the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Creator of the world .... it turns the whole logic of the Gospel upside down, by putting the effects of the Curse before the Fall. Death, thorns, cancer, suffering and bloodshed millions of years before sin must be accepted if the fossils were laid down before people were created. Such thinking twists the Bible into foolish self-contradiction, because it would put death, the last enemy into a creation which God calls very good." -- Carl Wieland
Cretins...er, creationists...sometimes display an almost childish delight while belaboring any perceived or imagined contradiction, inconsistency or incompleteness in "evolutionist" publications (1). At the same time the YECs studiously ignore their own inconsistencies, contradictions and outright falsehoods.
When cornered despite their best efforts at evasion the Creation Ex Nihilo response is commonly to grab the fig leaf that it is a "family magazine" rather than a technical journal. The philosophy appears to be that it is permissible to mislead and deceive those sheep too stupid or lacking requisite baclground knowledge to comprehend that they're being taken for fools.
Well-known YEC [and AIG CEO] Carl Wieland parades a wide array of dishonest cretin techniques in his article titled "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo* 23(1):8-13, December 2000 - February 2001 and featured, like much of Carl's drivel, on the AIG web site.
The article is essentially yet another rehash of common YEC "evidences" for a young earth [with much of its material lifted almost verbatim from an earlier Wieland masterpiece]. -- all of which have been repeatedly discredited by the practicioners of genuine science [as opposed to Wieland's undisguised religion evidenced by the above indentd passage -- evolution is wrong because it puts the punishment (death and disease) before the crime (Adam's sin)].
Of primary interest here is item 4a in the good doctor's trite list of discredited young earth "evidence" -- Coal formation.
Argonne National Laboratories have shown that heating wood (lignin, its major component), water and acidic clay at 150*C (rather cool geologically) for 4 to 36 weeks, in a sealed quartz tube with no added pressure, forms high-grade black coal.4
Compare the above to the text and Footnote 9 in Wieland's earlier petite opus titled "The Lost Squadron" [*Creation ex nihilo* (Vol 19 #3: 10-14, Jun-Aug 1997) ]--
The original article text referencing the footnote says
'Millions of years' are casually tossed around so often that we unconsciously perceive all natural changes as taking long timespans. That is why many are 'amazed' to hear of facts like 180 metres (600 feet) of layered sedimentary rock built up in months after the Mt. St Helens May 18, 1980 eruption.7 Or when hearing of real precious opal formed in months,8 or coal from simple heating of wood in 28 days.9
And the footnote itself originally read
Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container (with no added pressure) at 150 C for 28 days, and obtained high-grade black coal.
The text on the AIG web site has been changed to read "in mere months" in place of "in 28 days" and the footnote has been expanded to include an interesting array of fig leaves. Here is the current fooitnote 9 --
These researchers at Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood, water and acidic clay, and heated in a sealed container (without oxygen, and no added pressure) at 150 oC for 2-8 months. [Ed. Note: Or to be more precise than was necessary in a family magazine, the reaction included the major wood stiffener, lignin; other reactions contained the other major wood component, cellulose. So the principle is the same. They are hydrothermal reactions, hence the explanation in the magazine that water was an ingredient -- although obviously no scientific abstract would bother stating it -- and an essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water, everywhere", *Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993]
In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank coal".
In all cases the information is attributed to the article "Artificial coalification study: Preparation and characterization of synthetic Macerals" by Ryoichi Hayatsu, et. al., in *Organic Geochemistry*, Vol. 6, pp 463-471, 1984.
The contradictions and inconsistencies amongst the three passages are obvious. "28 days" is not the same as "4 to 36 weeks" or "mere months", and "wood" isn't "lignin" any more than "water" is "hydrogen". By Wieland's standards we can deem his "without oxygen" statement to be false, since each water molecule contains as atom of oxygen, therefore water is the same as oxygen, and Carl insists that water is an essential part of the reaction.
The [Hayatsu] article, in fact, describes testing with several materials including lignin and lignin/cellulose [the major components of wood], and heating durations ranging from 30 minutes to 8 months. None of the intervals was close to the 28 day figure given by Wieland - the closest was 60 minutes, 2nd closest 2 months. None of the tests used water - most involved mixtures of 4 g activated clay and 2 g lignin, both finely powdered, in sealed glass tubes which were either evacuated or the air replaced with nitrogen.
They obtained not "high-grade black coal" [anthracite], but "an insoluble material resembling low rank coals" for the shorter intervals, and a material somewhat resembling slightly higher grade coal [vitrinites] for longer times.
Wieland seems to be referring to "lignin" as "wood" [primarily lignin and cellulose combined] and justifying it via the fig leaf that cellulose was used in some of the short-term reference experiments that demonstrated no coalification catalized by acidic clay. This fig leaf, together with its "family magazine" companion, is displayed in the revised footnote 9 --
...to be more precise than was necessary in a family magazine, the reaction included the major wood stiffener, lignin; other reactions contained the other major wood component, cellulose. So the principle is the same.
In fact cellulose, if present, prevents the coalification from taking place. So the principle is *not* the same
In the traditional "buried peat bog" hypothesis of coal formation denounced by YECs as "unbiblical", the cellulose is consumed by anerobic bacteria before coalification. The YEC "Noachian deluge" scenario offers no explanation of the fate of the cellulose, and YECs like Wieland seem unaware that one is required.
Wieland's source for the "4 to 36 weeks" figure is as mysterious as his source for "28 days". The longest test period descrijbed in Ryoichi Hayatsu's article is given as 8 months. If we allow 4 weeks [28 days] per month, 8 months is 32 weeks. If we consider a month to be 30 days instead of 28, 8 months is still only about 34 weeks.
The "water" assertion is justified by this fig leaf in the revised footnote 9 --
They are hydrothermal reactions, hence the explanation in the magazine that water was an ingredient -- although obviously no scientific abstract would bother stating it -- and an essential one. See E. Pennisi, "Water, water, everywhere", *Science News* 143:121-5, 20 Feb. 1993
In other words, since virually everything on earth contains at least small amounts of water, it is accurate to list water as a major ingredient of the experiment. The original footnote 9 reads
Argonne National Laboratories in the US combined wood, water and acidic clay...
Which at the very least implies that more than residual trace amounts of water were employed. And the statement that
water was an ingredient -- although obviously no scientific abstract would bother stating it
is an evasion worthy of an award. The abstract doesn't bother with it, nor does the article itself. I think Herr Wieland is attempting a snowjob via minutae.2
The "high grade black coal" of the original "Lost Squadron" article has become, in the revised version, something quite different --
In some of the longer runs (still far, far less than millions or even thousands of years!) obtained material which had the infrared spectra like those of "high rank coals".
Here, in a fashion all too typical of YECs who attempt to warp legitimate research into supporting their biblical literalist obsessions, Carl ignores the substantial difference between "high grade black coal" and a soft brownish material with an infrared spectrum resembling that of high grade coal that was actually obtained at Argonne. And in the later article "The earth: how old does it look?" in *Creation Ex Nihilo*, the "high grade black coal" nonsense is repeated. What a hoot this guy is!
Given the gross misrepresentation of the Argonne research, it is reasonable to conclude that famous Australian YEC Dr Carl Wieland MD has either never read and/or understood the article he has now cited at least twice, or he is simply pulling numbers and facts out of his hat. His "no scientific abstract" statement suggests that is all he's seen -- an abstract -- and he's infering or hallucinating the erroneous and misleading details. In any case he has strengthened his position as the YEC court jester and given the rest of us a few additional laughs.
1 In their stated preference for "infallible scripture" over "fallible science" they tie themselves to the superstitions of Middle Eastern desert nomads of three millenia past.
2 Perhaps the good doctor can tell us what happens to water in a vacuum [or, have you ever had freeze-dried coffee?]
Edited by Admin, : Add indent codes around the excerpted sections.
You might want to consider visiting a local university library if there is one in your area. The public and private universities nearest my area are all open to the public, and I believe most of them allow you to check out materials and use their computers if you pay a nominal annual fee. (for example UNC-Chapel Hill charges about 25 dollars per year)
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
I'll have to do that. Our local GA public library has very limited access to online science stuff. I haven't been there but across the border in Chattanooga we there is a University of Tenn affiliate. I'll try them.
There is one thing still missing from your discussions and that is an indication that the participants really want to learn the truth. Access to that paper is available online for about $35.00. IIWY I would suggest that those who really want to find out if what SDA claims as true really is true then they each chip in $5.00 to get the paper and see for themselves. They need to actually make more than just a token commitment; they need to invest in the truth.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
A 5 part takedown series that I put together addressing the carbon dating page from Chris Johnson's website: Creation Liberty.
This is posted on a open SDA Facebook group where members of my family hang out. I'm actually making some good progress with several of them through pieces like this and my dendrochronology series I posted earlier.
Again thanks to so many people here who have and are helping educated me and provide me with resources.
"Things that are not perfect can still be perfectly useful."
Amazing. This guy references NIST for length standards, and claims that there are no such standards for radiocarbon. But the OX-1 standard is available directly from NIST! https://www-s.nist.gov/srmors/view_detail.cfm?srm=4990c (TAD, I would be tempted to make this error much more obvious in your rebuttal.)
For anomalous dates from shells, I would be tempted to reference Aardsma's explanation of this while he was still at ICR. An explanation from another YEC might have more impact with your audience: https://www.icr.org/article/293
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : I'm adding comments as I read the series.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein
“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger