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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 375 (759472)
06-11-2015 8:00 PM


Trying to follow ...
Two things that pop out at me.
1) It's not Muslims, Islamist or even Jihadist that cause the violence. It's RADICAL Muslims, Islamist and Jihadists. I do think, if all the Peaceful Muslims, Islamist and Jihadist rose up against the less numerous RADICALs, there'd be no terrorist left.
2) "Greatest" assumes that changing the words in the bible and the qur'an woiuld reduce the number of RADICAL religious nuts. I am wondering just how you confiscate all the copies of those books already out there? You could change the verbiage in all the newly printed books, but you can make it "retro-active".
All you would do is to drive up the incendiary thinking of Radicals.
All the violence done in the world that is due to religious belief can't be stopped by changing the books. It can only be changed by trying to educate everyone to the fact that we're all one species.
You can believe in whatever supreme being you want, but your loyalty should be to advancing human kind.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Greatest I am, posted 06-11-2015 8:54 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 375 (759475)
06-11-2015 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Greatest I am
06-11-2015 8:54 PM


Re: Trying to follow ...
Many regimes, from Hitler to Christianity new and old, political and religious, set great store in having the right kind of literature out there and in the case of new regimes, burning books they feel do not serve the new public good.
Yep, there are radicals in all religions. They've all tried to change the written word, as you are wishing to do. And history shows it never worked for any of them.
Education has been proposed as the best tool against jihadists and to Muslim's, their Qur'an is their main book of religious education for both their religion and their Sharia law.
It is the "educators,"that are the problem, not the books they teach from. Fanatical "educators" will always find information to support their radical views.
To me, it is the height of idiocy to thing we can convince the Muslim community to soften their stance on infidels while their book of education and law tells them to kill them.
The idiocy is in thinking you can "censor" a way to a better world.
I recognize that the elimination of the old books would be nearly impossible. But you may not have noticed all the revisions the bible has gone through and that most Christians are quoting the new ones and not the old ones.
There have been no "new" revisions to the bible in a very long time ... but you're correct. ALL religious books are written by men pretending to have divine guidance. Since I do not believe in a "supreme" being ... I do not believe any of it is a word of "god". It's just good story telling by very smart men.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Greatest I am, posted 06-11-2015 8:54 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Greatest I am, posted 06-12-2015 9:47 AM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 197 of 375 (759573)
06-13-2015 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by GDR
06-12-2015 9:48 PM


If I had to believe in the god that at times is in favour of genocide and public stonings as He is sometimes erroneously depicted in the OT then I would not be a follower of a god like that.
??? So ... the old testament is bologna ... and the new testament is the truth ???
Isn't that picking and choosing what you want to believe? If one part of the whole bible is bull----, isn't the rest of it?
But this is all off track ... sorry, I just couldn't read that without befuddlement.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 06-12-2015 9:48 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 9:59 AM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 199 of 375 (759582)
06-13-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Jon
06-13-2015 9:59 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you? I already am confused how people can take the existence of an omnipotent being on faith ... now you say his word might not be the truth.
So omnipotence isn't so ... omnipotent? And you still believe?
How???

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 9:59 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:23 AM mikechell has replied
 Message 203 by jar, posted 06-13-2015 11:59 AM mikechell has not replied
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 4:05 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 375 (759590)
06-13-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Jon
06-13-2015 11:23 AM


But, if you believe the bible is the "word of god" then you can't pick and choose, can you?
GDR doesn't believe the bible is the "word of god":
You're right, Jon ... so none of it needs be true, by his reckoning.
Those are the "believers" that will still go to the wrong "place", correct?

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 11:23 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Jon, posted 06-13-2015 12:09 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 209 of 375 (759649)
06-14-2015 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by GDR
06-13-2015 4:05 PM


If you notice, Faith cheered your post. You both take the fundamentalist view that the Bible has one author namely God.
Well, it's my understanding that all the parts that "are tenets for behavior" something, are scripted by men under the guidance of god. But, I don't think any of it is god's word because I don't believe there is a god. I also believe that ALL organized religion is idolatry. And it is this very idolatry that corrupt "leaders" take advantage of to convince "followers" to commit acts of violence and savagery against others.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by GDR, posted 06-13-2015 4:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:52 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 375 (759721)
06-14-2015 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by GDR
06-14-2015 5:52 PM


I also believe that ALL organized religion is idolatry. And it is this very idolatry that corrupt "leaders" take advantage of to convince "followers" to commit acts of violence and savagery against others.
Certainly there have been those who have misused the Bible to commit acts of violence and savagery but if the Bible hadn't been available they would have used some other justification.
I never said christianity, or any religion, is the ONLY reason people maim and kill other people. I just said that once someone starts using those religion's BOOKS ... they can twist the words any way they want. It becomes idolatry ... the book is all, and that leads to Inquisitions and Jihadist, etc. It's not the books themselves that cause the evil ... it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 5:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by GDR, posted 06-14-2015 6:17 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 217 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:19 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM mikechell has replied
 Message 219 by Jon, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 222 of 375 (759766)
06-14-2015 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
06-14-2015 6:34 PM


it's the ones who pervert the meanings in the books.
Jon wrote:
And what meanings are those?
Currently, those passages of the qur'an that are driving the Radical Islamist.
Faith wrote:
Fifty million BIBLE BELIEVERS were murdered by the Inquisition.
Plus seventeen million Jews, Muslims, witches and sundry others who ran afoul of the Inquisition.
The only numbers I can find are closer to 6000 people were actually executed during the 500+ years of the Inquisition. Fewer than 200,000 people were tried. Where are you getting your numbers, Faith???
Hitler didn't even get the numbers you say ... (and he was driven by religious fervor, too, by the way).
Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 6:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:05 PM mikechell has replied
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:13 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 375 (759773)
06-14-2015 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
06-14-2015 11:05 PM


First off, Faith ... I did type in who I was quoting. You are only credited for the 2 "numbers" posts.
Please please please stop attributing the Inquisition to "Christianity" or the Bible.
Okay ... not christianity ... Catholicism. Still based on the bible, still "christians" ... but they did kill members of the "other" faiths who did not renounce said faith.
Okay ... the "cripplegate" link raises the number to over 100,000. Still a LONG way from tens of millions.
The other site is just a long ... whatever. You talk about confusing ... whatever that is, I can't see that it actually SAYS anything.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 06-14-2015 11:05 PM Faith has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 375 (759857)
06-15-2015 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
06-15-2015 1:44 PM


Re: Character and Reality
To me, it means that I have been given the gift and promise of communion with GOD.
You've passed the hazing ritual? You are now worthy to be a friend of god. He created the entire universe so that humans could prove they are good enough to be his friend, for lo, before the creation, he was lonely.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Phat, posted 06-15-2015 1:44 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 06-15-2015 7:27 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 375 (759922)
06-16-2015 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
06-15-2015 7:58 PM


Re: Character and Reality
God condemns human sacrifice. God Himself died for us.
So many conundrums in the bible.
So ... Jesus IS god ... and the SON of god? I've heard of "Uncle-daddies" in the backwoods of West Virginia and places like that ... but
Does this mean that "father, son, and the holy ghost" are actually one being?
God isn't satisfied with "Thou shalt have no other god before me." He made up two "incognito" identities for those who could obey that commandment?
Of course ... "Thou shalt have no other god before me" insinuates that there ARE other gods, and yours wants to be the top dog.
I have no doubt, how an evil person could twist the words of the bible to make violence seem "right".

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 06-15-2015 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 8:51 AM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 375 (759969)
06-16-2015 12:35 PM


... He suffered God's withdrawing His presence from Him on the cross ...
So, about the 9th hour of the crucifixion ... the quote SHOULD have read, "ME, ME, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Forgive me, Faith. I am not really trying to belittle your beliefs. I am trying to illustrate the ease at which the words of your bible can be twisted to mean just about anything.
I stand by the fact that any religious book can be used to teach people good ways to live their lives. But the books can also be misused ... used to bring out the worst in people.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Faith, posted 06-16-2015 12:37 PM mikechell has not replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 375 (759971)
06-16-2015 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by ringo
06-16-2015 12:04 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Are you suggesting that the troops presently fighting and killing jihadists are doing evil?
Yes.
No. Our people, and other Country's people are trying to do what they must to prevent evil from spreading. If we were allowed to complete the mission, ISIS would already be stopped.
ISIS does whatever it likes anyway. The war is already lost.
The battle SHOULD have been for hearts and minds, not an everlasting body count.
Not true. The war is only perceived lost because we are held back by bleeding hearts who think you can "win the hearts" of Radical Islamist. Those people are taught that the ONLY way to "heaven" is through destruction of all who are NOT of their faith.
So, the only way to prevent them from turning the world into their "caliphate", is to stop them where they are and destroy them before they destroy us.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 06-16-2015 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 12:46 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 06-16-2015 12:57 PM mikechell has not replied
 Message 271 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 1:39 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 375 (759990)
06-16-2015 2:03 PM


Theodoric wrote: That invasion of Iraq went so well for the people there it is surprising that all are not sending us gifts all the time.
The first one DID go well. I was there for Desert Storm. We freed Kuwait in a few days. We should have been allowed to go the rest of the way then. "No," we were told ... "the Iraq government will see the error of their ways, they've promised us."
Theodoric wrote:The US government is responsible for the growth of Islamic radicals.
Quite possibly ... but not JUST the US Gov. But the U.N. and all the nations who pulled out before we finished the job. Every time we get ahead, we're pulled back. You can call it a conspiracy theory if you want ... but 12 years in the USMC proved to me otherwise.
Ringo ... my answers to Theodoric pretty much go to your responses, too.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2015 5:23 PM mikechell has replied

mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 375 (759991)
06-16-2015 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Greatest I am
06-16-2015 1:39 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
GIA wrote: mikechell
Well put.
What of the Qur'an.
Do you agree that there would be value in advocating changes within it as possibly suggested by the more peaceful left wing of Islam.
Perhaps you saw something I didn't write.
I do not think the bible is a "bad" book. But that people can twists it's messages to convince others to do evil things.
I also do not think the qur'an is a "bad" book. Like ANY religious book, it can be interpreted in ways that convince followers to commit evil acts.
It is NOT the books and words them selves that cause the harm. It is the power hungry who use those books to cause harm.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 1:39 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Greatest I am, posted 06-16-2015 2:52 PM mikechell has not replied

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