Summations Only

You are responding to one specific understanding of the Bible drawn from a select group of passages. If you go to the first chapter of the Gospel of John the writer makes the claim that Jesus embodied the Word or the Wisdom of God. Sometimes Christians get so wound up with trying to prove Jesus was God in one way or another they overlook the fact that Jesus was a man, and more specifically a 1st century Jew living and teaching within a 1st century Jewish culture.The ideas that you are responding to overlook the fact that we see Jesus prior to going into Jerusalem praying to the Father that He not have to go through with what lay ahead. It was optional. He knew full well what happened to those who made enemies of those in power. He did seem to believe that in some way though God would vindicate Him and confirm His teachings, but in the end He went into Jerusalem as a great act of faith. It was men who crucified Jesus because that is what those in power in that culture did, and it was God who resurrected Him.Yes, you can take your understanding of the Gospel accounts by attempting to take the Bible as being literally written by God and then cherry picking specific verses and ignoring others. However, if you take the Bible as a book written by people inspired to write the accounts of there day with all of their biases and misunderstandings, and then read the Bible holistically you get a different picture.The religion is Christianity. It is about being a follower of Jesus. Jesus is the one who teaches that we are to love our enemies. turn the other cheek. do unto others etc and God the Father affirmed and vindicated the life of Jesus with His resurrection.So yes, if one is going to take a fundamentalist approach to either the Bible or the Qu'ran then you can get a very different view of the nature of God than what we see in Jesus. However, just a cursory glance at human history shows conclusively that you don't need a religious book to justify all sorts of atrocities.

[as=G I A]I agree but a holy book makes it so much easier to talk yourself into doing something evil.[/qs]People who want to do evil will always find justification. It is all about power and greed. Sure, but all theistic religions are about trying to discern the true nature of God and then decide what to do about it if anything. As a Christian I believe that we can know the true nature of God by what I understand about Jesus. If you try and take the Bible as essentially dictated by God then you have to square a God who commands genocide and public stonings with one who says that we are to love our enemies etc. It just can't be done. I watched that video and found that the speaker consistently takes takes specific parts of the Gospels and twists them beyond recognition. Just take for example his take on loving your neighbour as you love yourself. He claims that you don't love your neighbour as you love your family. Of course, it is just that we only have one word for love. It is simply that we are to want the best for our neighbour just as we want the best for ourselves.Actually Jesus only says that man should not divorce his wife except that he "may" do so only in the case of adultery. He doesn't say that a woman can't divorce her husband. He was only trying to protect women from abject poverty.As far as the resurrection is concerned I just don't see it as being that difficult. If one accepts the likelihood of life being the result of a pre-existing intelligence as opposed to being the result of an infinite string of mindless processes then it isn't much of a stretch to think that there might be more of a point to all of this rather than just transient lives that will come to nothing when the universe dies out.From there I just don't see it as that great a stretch to believe that God might actually have a plan that calls for the resurrection of the entire creation, and that He could, in the middle of time, resurrect the one man who perfectly embodied His nature.

Of course there is evidence. That Gospels are evidence and the start of the Christian church is evidence. Is it conclusive? No. You can choose to accept it or reject it.What is the evidence that the Big Bang or the process of evolution are the result of a infinite string of mindless processes? There is no evidence nor philosophical basis for believing that either. Well first off, if God decided to send Himself to Earth it rather begs the question of who Jesus was praying to. There is a difference between God physically showing as compared to having His nature perfectly embodied in a human being. As far as prophesy is concerned you are once again using the fundamentalist view as a strawman. Most of the prophesies were about the fall of Jerusalem. It didn't take supernatural knowledge to know that if you kept up the aggression against the Romans they would do what they always did, and for that matter it did happen within the life times of many in that generation.Yes there were some that thought that time would end in their life times but there have always been those that believed that. We do know that life in the world as we know it will end at some point, so we will see at that time whether or not there is re-creation of this world or not.In the meantime we should all do what we can to care for our planet and the life on it regardless of our beliefs.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Well, you can keep espousing the views of fundamentalist Christians and then shooting down that strawman. I can do that as well.I make no claim that the Bible is inerrantly ghost written by God.

I made no claim that it was. We all make up our own mind about what we believe. However, the fact that a man crucified largely for making messianic claims relatively quickly gained a substantial following is evidence although certainly not proof. There were many others in a roughly 200 year period that made messianic claims as well, many of them actually having some military success, and when they were put to death their movement died with them, or else took on a new leader. ..and ad nauseum it has been repeated that somehow those processes came into existence. The question is whether or not there is an intelligent or a mindless basis for their existence. You had essentially made claim that God sent himself down to Earth to get himself killed. I simply pointed out that your version of Christianity is not consistent with the Gospel accounts. As far as the miracles are concerned it would be God that performed them in response to Jesus. Here is the full text.

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1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

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The first part is obviously about the fall of Jerusalem with people running for the hills etc. The part of the "Son of Man" coming is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is brought to the Father. That passage is not about Jesus coming to Earth but about Jesus coming to the Father.When Jesus speaks about the fall of Jerusalem He is speaking prophetically, and when it happens as it did in 70 AD, then that along with the resurrection will vindicate His life and message and that message will go out to the nations. That isn't it at all. That is the strawman that you set up by insisting that the Bible should be read as one book with all of it being equally valid. We have the gift of being able to reason, and we have generations of the reasoning of others to learn from as well. I choose to interpret the Bible largely through the lens of what I can discern about the life and teaching of Jesus from the NT while using the OT to help me understand Him. knowing that He was a 1st century Jew very much immersed in it's teachings and culture. We don't have certainty but we all ultimately all choose what we believe with the only certainty being that we could be wrong.

What makes what I believe any more wishful thinking that you believe. Chris Hitchens, (who I actually enjoyed). used to say that He didn't want there to be a god of any kind. That would make what he believed to be wishful thinking. That emperor came along three centuries later and responded to an already well establish Christianity. I have never claimed anything as proof but only as evidence. Of course, but if we accept that the natural processes are the result of pre-existing intelligence then that allows for the possibility that there is a truth that can be discerned about that intelligence whether it be by philosophy, revelation or science. I know what you mean about the differences in the beliefs of Christians. I haven't been able to find anyone else who has it all figured out correctly. I don't adhere to the Christianity that you just described either. I don't disagree with the thought that many early Christians thought that Jesus would return in their life times. However I suggest that it was because they had just had Jesus with them recently and so it would be somewhat reasonable to think that it would all happen sooner rather than later. There have always been those who said that it's going to happen any day now.

Well I suppose that because a lot of people have historically believed that physical death isn't the end of our consciousness then it must be wrong and you know better.Once again you revert back to the strawman of Christian fundamentalists to define the nature of God. Yes and no. Faith believes in an inerrant Bible essentially written by God and then works out what she believes from that. It is something that essentially grew out of the reformation and is a Christian belief that scarcely exists in your part of the world. I don't hold to that view either. I essentially look at the Bible as a book written by mostly well meaning but still flawed human beings.Religion has always been about the discerning the nature of God or gods and then sorting out what our response should be to that nature. God as I worship Him is honest, loving, just, forgiving, merciful, peaceful etc. and from that it follows that it is His desire that mankind reflect those same values into the world. I am not saying that the Christian church is particularly successful at doing that but sometimes it is.If I had to believe in the god that at times is in favour of genocide and public stonings as He is sometimes erroneously depicted in the OT then I would not be a follower of a god like that. In some ways you have nailed the problem with much of religion as humans have more often than not taken to religion because of what they hope God will do for them, as opposed to the idea of actually serving a just and good God simply for its own sake.Frankly I don't think much about the afterlife. I have enough to deal with in this one. Yes I do believe that this life isn't the end but when I shuffle off I figure that whatever happens happens. I don't however believe that the whole thing is based on whatever our theological beliefs happen to be. It is my view that it is our hearts that God is interested in regardless of our beliefs. Well as I said, I don't believe that it is as plain as day at all, and I contend that what you are saying is a complete misreading of the Gospels. You are reading it with a 21st century fundamentalist mindset, as opposed to hearing as a 1st century Jew would have heard it in the historical context.Cheers

We know an awful lot of stuff about the natural world that we experience. That doesn't mean that there isn't information that is undetectable by the scientific method, or at least isn't yet.On the front page of Scientific American a while back the headline asked the question - "Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter- Is Another Universe Silently Interwoven With Our Own?". Just because something isn't perceptible by our 5 senses doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What I believe is pretty simple. As I theist I believe that God is good in the way that I think that we all at some level understand goodness. That would make God just, loving, merciful, kind etc. As a Christian I believe that God vindicated and affirmed the life and teaching of Jesus by resurrecting Him. (If Jesus wasn't resurrected then there is no reason to pay any more attention to him than there is anybody else and likely less as that would mean He was delusional.) When I read the Bible which is made up of 66 books, with no doubt hundreds of authors involved, I understand it through those two concepts - the goodness of God and the life and teachings of Jesus.Jesus was as I said a 1st century Jew speaking almost exclusively to 1st century Jews. Very nearly all that we have of what Jesus said refers back to the Hebrew Scriptures so if we really want to understand Jesus we need the OT. In many cases Jesus actually corrects the OT by what he says so we can even see that Jesus didn't believe in an inerrant scripture.Jesus said that we are to love our enemies. How do you square that with God commanding genocide and public stonings. You can't. It isn't really a matter of picking and choosing but of the method that is used.Just as man has evolved physically the Bible tells the story of how our knowledge of the nature of God has evolved and for that matter continues to evolve. For example when we look at the nature of God as understood by the writers of the Torah we see God very differently in the later prophets such as Isaiah, and then we see the true nature of God perfectly embodied in Jesus.You can call it wishful thinking if you like, but I don't think I'm any different than either you or Faith for that matter in that like everyone else we are looking for what we believe to be truthful, and on that we can build our individual world view which establishes how we live out our lives.

If you notice, Faith cheered your post. You both take the fundamentalist view that the Bible has one author namely God. What that essentially does is make a false idol of the Bible which the Bible itself even warns about. The religion is Christianity, not Biblianity.I actually am happy to call the Bible the "word of God", as I believe that through the Bible we can learn the true nature of God. However in the Bible we can also see the true nature of mankind when for example we see people justifying genocide and public stonings by claiming that God told them to do it. (I go into a little more detail in my posting to Tangle above.)I would call the Bible the "word of God' with Jesus being the "Word of God".

I'm interested in things that I can know as well. However, there are some things that we can know objectively and some things that we believe subjectively. There are no doubt things that you believe that you can't know. You take the information available to you and form a conclusion.Even in the case of your atheism you have taken the available information and formed a conclusion, but you can't know whether your conclusion is correct or not.I assume that you hold a world view of one sort or another. It may be based on what's best for you or what's best for humanity and the world. That world view is presumably based on something that you believe to be true or none of it would matter.

People have committed acts of violence and savagery for all sorts of reasons and it is always about the human quest for power which is a function of our pride. If you are going to build a following then you are going to need a cause on which to hang your hat. Sometimes it is with nationalism, sometimes it is that it will make you one of the survivors, sometimes it is for personal power and sometimes it is by bringing some god or another into it with or without a holy book.However, I have never heard someone commit an atrocity because Jesus said to love your enemy, turn the other cheek, love others as you love yourself etc. Certainly there have been those who have misused the Bible to commit acts of violence and savagery but if the Bible hadn't been available they would have used some other justification.

I understand that Faith. We have agreed that we have very different views on how God intends us to understand and follow Biblical teaching. My point was that Mike was arguing against your views and not mine even though he disagrees with both of us. I only mentioned you cheering it in order to try and point that out to him.Cheers

Hey - I think we have an agreement. Preach it Brother.

No and no.Just as the true nature of God can be found in the Bible we can also find the depths of evil that mankind is capable of, and then even attributing that evil to God.Actually sacrifice is a good example of how human understanding of the nature of God evolved in the Bible. At first they believed they could get God on their side by human sacrifice. As we can see in stories told metaphorically such as Issac sacrificing the lamb instead of his son, it became about animal sacrifice. Then finally in Jesus we have Him saying that God's true nature, as it had always been, is that He desires "mercy not sacrifice", and that true sacrifice is about giving of ourselves for others.

Yes it is an evolving story, but it is also a variety of stories written by many authors over many centuries. There is history, there is allegory, there is poetry, there are hymns and Job reads like a play.I don't accept and reject what I like. I understand the Bible through what has been recorded about the life, times and teaching of Jesus. As I said earlier you can't square the idea of God commanding genocide and public stonings with what Jesus teaches.You insist on arguing against Christianity by arguing against a fundamentalist view of the Bible a view held by a minority of Christians.Edited by GDR, : typo