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Author Topic:   The Bully Swarm Thread, off the Earth Science Curriculum thread
jar
Member
Posts: 30944
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 155 (752383)
03-10-2015 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:41 PM


Re: the Flood don't fit in.
Faith writes:

There was one Biblical Flood.

Two bad the Bible says you are wrong yet again Faith.

Have you ever actually read the Bible?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31333
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 155 (752384)
03-10-2015 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by jar
03-10-2015 11:41 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
But again Faith, what we see today is that layers being laid down DO follow the contour of the layers laid down yesterday.

Gravity makes that impossible

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 03-10-2015 11:46 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 119 by AZPaul3, posted 03-11-2015 8:52 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30944
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 155 (752385)
03-10-2015 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:43 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Faith writes:

Gravity makes that impossible

Likely she is referring to "But again Faith, what we see today is that layers being laid down DO follow the contour of the layers laid down yesterday." from Message 105.

I beg your pardon? Can you provide the model, method, process or procedure involved in your assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

Coyote
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 109 of 155 (752386)
03-10-2015 11:46 PM


For a scientist to debate these issues with Faith/faith is useless.

No amount of evidence will change a mind that is rusted shut.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2015 1:01 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply
 Message 114 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 1:03 AM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 121 by herebedragons, posted 03-11-2015 10:30 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 110 of 155 (752389)
03-11-2015 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:28 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
The erosion between layers you all like to make into evidence for surface exposure, is minuscule, itty bitty barely visible erosion if you're looking at the walls of the Grand Canyon for instance, ...

Yes, some are barely noticeable and others are quite extreme like the Great Unconformity.

... and that is what you are comparing with the surface of the earth now with its hills and mountains and valleys and cliffs and canyons.

Actually not. That would be you, not us. On the other hand, we do compare the Great Unconformity with modern topography and even the unconformity within the GC Supergroup.

But that doesn't create any dissonance for you. Amazing but true.I believe the sagging is caused by the loss of salt as it rises up through the layers above forming domes that eventually reach the surface. By dissipate I just mean some point must come when all the salt has risen to the top, but every cross section shows it in process. Should this take millions of years? Apparently they move and change fast enough to cause a hazard in some places. Sounds like they move a lot faster than millions of years.

I know this will come as a surprise to you but yes, some processes are slow and some are fast. Some are fast only in the geological sense and one of those would be salt domes.

I'm not sure what your problem is on this.

I believe the sagging is caused by the loss of salt as it rises up through the layers above forming domes that eventually reach the surface. By dissipate I just mean some point must come when all the salt has risen to the top, but every cross section shows it in process. Should this take millions of years? Apparently they move and change fast enough to cause a hazard in some places. Sounds like they move a lot faster than millions of years.

Well, it isn't so different. In some places we see nice flat regions and others we see rugged terrain. It was probably similar in the past.

Never mind, I KNOW you can rationalize it all away, as can edge and anybody else here. Itty bitty erosion proves it was at the surface of the earth and it isn't surprising at all that no gigantic disturbances like the Grand Canyon occurred for hundreds of millions of years, and it makes perfect sense that one era should be characterized by limestone and another by sandstone, and that each era has just those creatures that are found buried in those particular sediments and no others. Earth time isn't ongoing, it occurs in sharply demarcated time periods with sharply demarcated collections of life forms.

To me this is absurd in the extreme, but to Geology it makes perfect sense.


Yes, to you, normal stuff is absurd.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:28 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:42 AM edge has responded

edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 111 of 155 (752390)
03-11-2015 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:34 PM


Yes, ancient rivers, buried rivers, buried canyons. Sigh. It's all just the effects of underground water running between the layers after the Flood. There are still underground rivers. It's all quite consistent with the Flood. Oh but we must have it all to be former landscapes. Sigh.

Well, why not? The maps you've seen look an awful lot like modern terrain, so why should its origin be different?

And underground rivers? Seriously? Don't you think there is a difference between solution-formed caves and river drainages?

How is it that layers built on top of former "landscapes" with such nice straight horizontal lines?

Because that is how valleys fill in. Have you ever seen how a lake fills in a valley? Why would sediments in the lake be any different?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:34 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:31 AM edge has responded

edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 112 of 155 (752391)
03-11-2015 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:41 PM


Re: the Flood don't fit in.
There was one Biblical Flood.

Yes, according to the Bible.

I thought you didn't reference the Bible in your posts...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:41 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:22 AM edge has not yet responded

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2153
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 113 of 155 (752392)
03-11-2015 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Coyote
03-10-2015 11:46 PM


For a scientist to debate these issues with Faith/faith is useless.
No amount of evidence will change a mind that is rusted shut.

You are right, of course. Sometimes I go a little crazy and waste a day. A little break from processing images.

I was remembering something funny today. While my grandson and I were on our way down to the Grand Canyon last summer, I told him quite a bit about Faith and her views about the geology of the Colorado Plateau. When we finally got to the Grand Canyon I kept thinking, "I wish Faith could see it from here."


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Coyote, posted 03-10-2015 11:46 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 1:09 AM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 122 by herebedragons, posted 03-11-2015 10:39 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 114 of 155 (752393)
03-11-2015 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Coyote
03-10-2015 11:46 PM


For a scientist to debate these issues with Faith/faith is useless.
No amount of evidence will change a mind that is rusted shut.

Truer words never spoken here.

I'm pretty sure that she doesn't realize how insulting her posts are. I really don't care to much about what she says about me, but there are a lot of people whose work I respect out there that she just trashes in pedantic rants. With absolutely zero training...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Coyote, posted 03-10-2015 11:46 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:21 AM edge has not yet responded

edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 115 of 155 (752394)
03-11-2015 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Tanypteryx
03-11-2015 1:01 AM


You are right, of course. Sometimes I go a little crazy and waste a day. A little break from processing images.

I was remembering something funny today. While my grandson and I were on our way down to the Grand Canyon last summer, I told him quite a bit about Faith and her views about the geology of the Colorado Plateau. When we finally got to the Grand Canyon I kept thinking, "I wish Faith could see it from here."


I'm sure it would still exceed her imagination, but point taken. Everyone should make the trip.

I remember a friend form northern Europe saying that her professor talked about how big the GC is, adding that "everything is bigger in the United States". Yah, well, we do everything to excess here, ... including YEC ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2015 1:01 AM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2015 1:21 AM edge has responded

Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2153
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 116 of 155 (752395)
03-11-2015 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by edge
03-11-2015 1:09 AM


we do everything to excess here, ... including YEC ...

That is for sure!

Even though you may not be able to educate Faith, I would like to thank you for the effort. I have learned a lot from your posts.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 1:09 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by edge, posted 03-11-2015 1:25 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4578
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 117 of 155 (752396)
03-11-2015 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tanypteryx
03-11-2015 1:21 AM


That is for sure!

Even though you may not be able to educate Faith, I would like to thank you for the effort. I have learned a lot from your posts.


Thanks, and it's good exercise. I most enjoy brainwashing all of the students in this area. Yep, I'm a perpetrator...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2015 1:21 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

Pollux
Member
Posts: 241
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 118 of 155 (752399)
03-11-2015 7:43 AM


Flood problems
Though I am no longer an SDA, I still attend church when my wife goes.
Last Saturday a fellow gave a talk on the Flood. He discussed the structure of the ark, showed a thrilling video of Catastrophic Plate Tectonics, and showed evidence for the Flood as AiG has in one of their articles.
He did not take questions then but is returning on the 21st, with his talk including Ice Age and RM dating, and said he will take questions then.
I have an "ark" full of questions, I just wonder how many I will be able to get in. I have accumulated a lot data from EvC and elsewhere and think I am well-prepared for what he might say. Of course, seeing as The Bible (and Ellen White) is right and everything has to fit it, I probably won't make much of an impression.

If folk are interested, I'll let you know how things go.


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3964
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 119 of 155 (752404)
03-11-2015 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
03-10-2015 11:43 PM


Re: What you can see when you open your eyes.
Gravity makes that impossible

You're right Faith. That is why the snowfall in this photo is so flat, horizontal across the entire scene. Gravity will not allow it to follow the contour of the ground below it.

Even underwater gravity keeps the sediments horizontally flat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 03-10-2015 11:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-11-2015 11:19 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19845
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 120 of 155 (752406)
03-11-2015 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
03-10-2015 1:04 PM


Re: waves, big waves, small waves, breaking news about breaking waves
I have claimed nothing about nonbreaking waves and you already put all that up to debunk the Flood back when you didn't have a clue I couldn't have been talking about nonbreaking waves.

Great -- I will hold you to this: no non-breaking waves involved in the magic of flood geology.

However, ocean water DOES move stuff. Why does all that junk end up on those little islands? Why do bottles with messages in them finally make land across the world? ...

You mean the floating stuff that gets blown by winds? Curiously no rocks, pebbles, or sand are deposited on those little islands from the mainlands or even from other little islands.

Below the turbulent layer of breaking waves the water behaves the same as below non-breaking waves. The breaking wave turbulent layer can result in temporary currents at the surface as they are blown downwind.

... The ocean also has layers in it, apparently at different temperatures, and it has currents as well as waves. ...

Indeed there are ocean currents. The Gulf Stream is well known for running up the east coast and then east below Greenland to get to England. But without continents this current would not exist. Ocean currents like this also do not transport rocks, pebbles and sand for deposition in far places. People have known about these currents since the dawn of navigation, Faith. The average speed is 4 mph -- an easy walking pace.

There are also deep ocean currents, and they too are impacted by the geology of the ocean bottom. They also do not move fast enough to transport rocks, pebbles, sand and dense materials for deposition in far places.

The relative velocities of water in a section across these currents is called a velocity ofile, with speed plotted against distance. It looks something like this:

... similar to the velocity profile across a river channel, except here the edge of the "channel" is tranquil water.

The flow is laminar (no turbulence) and increases from the outer boundary to the center, so the relative velocity compared to adjacent water is very slow, so they are not transport currents, they are not capable of carrying rocks, pebbles and sands for deposition in far places. The speed of these currents is very slow, as we can know from the age of the water at upwelling points (where it comes back to the surface when it runs into continents) -- some of the water has been away from the surface for over 1000 years. Upwelling points do not deposit silts.

Water currents from river deltas are faster, and the materials carried by the rivers gets deposited as the water spreads out and slows down. The deltas are built up bt the deposition of sediments carried by the river, and you can observe the limits to distance for different size particles in the deltas. There is no transport and deposition rocks, pebbles, sand and dense materials to far places.

... Don't get too minutely scientific about something until we have a better idea of the various ways the Flood might have worked.

And everyone is waiting for you to catch up with the rest of the world on that.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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