Evidence that the Great Unconformity did not Form Before the Strata above it

It's a simple question Faith, and one you could answer in 5 seconds if you didn't want to avoid it for whatever reason.Yes? No? JB

I didn't give you a definition, I'm trying to figure out what YOUR definition is. You being willing to answer a few simple questions will allow the *many* of us on this thread who are confused by your inconsistency to sort it out and better understand you.Below is a VERY clear scenario. If you don't find it clear, ask a clarifying question about the scenario so that I can make it clear.Yes? No? JB

This isn't complicated Faith, it's the basics of sedimentary rock formation. Claiming that I'm the ignorant one regarding this process while avoiding a perfectly simple question regarding the most basic formation scenario is telling.The question I've asked is as simple as it gets and yet you act like it's a trap with a thousand hidden exceptions:A: particles are suspended
B: particles settle to the bottom
C: lithification occursA to B to C. Strata or not? JB

I get more and more confused regarding your fundamental position on strata the more you tell us about it. If "ALL the strata are highly variable in thickness", then how can multiple contiguous layers of strata only be horizontal?Those two positions are mutually exclusive. Do you not see the conflict? How do you reconcile such?JB

Message 1155Message 1157
Faith, you would do well to learn and remember that to science and engineering, the term "fluid" does not literally mean "liquid". The easy lookup dictionary definition demonstrates that clearly, while a more scientific definition is even more fluid

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The distinction between solids and fluid is not entirely obvious. The distinction is made by evaluating the viscosity of the substance. Silly Putty can be considered to behave like a solid or a fluid, depending on the time period over which it is observed. It is best described as a viscoelastic fluid. There are many examples of substances proving difficult to classify. A particularly interesting one is pitch, as demonstrated in the pitch drop experiment currently running at the University of Queensland.

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Finding a favorite meaning with terms like "horizontal" and "fluid" that suit a particular purpose doesn't help you like you think it helps you, it only backs you further onto rapidly receding footing. Under normal gravitational conditions, particulate solids such as sand, gravel, coal, grain, etc., all act as fluids once their angle of repose is breached and thus can no longer resist shear loads.JB

You're saying that the quote I attributed to Faith actually is from edge? I'm not convinced that's true, but I'll await your link to where edge wrote it and Faith quoted it from.JBEdited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.Edited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Ok, got it. Thanks for the explanation.And your observation is correct -- either Faith accepts that the thickness of the Coconino varies dramatically which gives her conflicting positions, or she denies the Coconino varies and is in violation of reality.JB

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...Steno reasoned ...

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You notice is says "Steno reasoned" ... it doesn't say "Steno drilled millions of holes and studied thousands of cuts and traveled the world with the help of tens of thousands of helpers gathering data and confirming his reasoning.You can cherry pick from 300 year old science writings and you will show that 300 year old cherry picked science writings will often differ from the field observations that follow. You will show nothing more.JB

You do realize that those thousands of square miles of flat horizontal slabs can't actually be flat and horizontal don't you? Imagine how far you could see. JB

Faith, several times later I've ask a series of perfectly simple A, B, C questions of you in an attempt to understand your position as to the formation of sedimentary strata. You go to extreme gymnastics to avoid answering. I'm going to try another round.Scenario:I take an typical household sized fish tank / aquarium.
I measure out enough fine silt to cover the bottom of the tank to a depth of one inch (I do not place it in the tank yet)
I place a small dome shaped rock, 3 inches in diameter and 2 inches tall in the bottom center of the tank
I fill the tank with water.
I mix in the silt while stirring to make sure it is suspended in the water.
I leave it undisturbed until the silt has settled and the water is clear enough that we can easily view the floor of the tank.Do you believe:
A: that that 1" layer of silt that has settled to the bottom will be draped at all over that rock?
or
B: that the silt will the be butted up to the rock in a perfectly horizontal plane all the way around the rock?In other words, will we see the top of the dome shaped rock free of sediment or will the entire rock be hidden by the sediment?Thanks
JB

Very well put.JB

If I had ever been able to get Faith to address or even answer questions regarding the outcome of such tests, I would have done the experiment(and variations) and filmed them for her. I will get to it eventually as part of my earth science curriculum.It's such an easy and clear experiment and can be done in a low energy environment (sitting perfectly still) or with medium energy input (say a fan making waves on the surface) or even high energy (a mixing system of some sort). I'm looking forward to working those details and and showing the series.JBEdited by ThinAirDesigns, : No reason given.

Yes. we know ... you didn't drive over the speed limit on your one hour, 100 mile drive.He has explained the "If A, then B" to you clearly in several different ways and you STILL don't get it. I'm honestly no longer sure if it's willful or just a complete lack of ability to understand the basic laws of the universe. Either way, on your part it's all speculation and no evidence.JB

And yet every single time we've asked you (and we've asked you a LOT) to imagine what sort of tolerance there was to your 'horizontal" (even when we ask you about FIVE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE DEGREE out of perfect horizontal) you responded with descriptions of just how crazy we where and how you could not believe how out of touch with reality we are. Yep -- over and over and over she did this. Well, until YOU define what YOU call "horizontal", we can't even imagine what you mean by that statement. That is why we have attempted to get such a definition from you for pages and pages and all we get is retorts and obfuscation. Of course it does, that's what we've been trying to tell you - and we've been trying to tell that when it comes to soils, the measurement of just how "fluid" a sediment is is called the "angle of repose".Here are a few samples of sediment shoveled from the bottom of a lake showing several different consistencies, NONE of which are in any hurry to become horizontal (whatever your definition is). In a high energy environment, these would disperse into the water and spread out. In a low energy environment, they will not be growing legs and moving themselves to the low end of a lake whether that is a hundred yards or miles away. It's simple physics Faith.So now that you've acknowledged that by "horizontal', you don't mean perfectly flat, let's return the question in Message 1122 and see if we can't make some progress. Can we get an answer now?JB

Yep. To someone who is knowledgeable of these relationships and understands them, it's rather simple to make reliable predictions. If one refuses to learn, guessing is all that's left. I don't know Faith's background, but I suspect she hasn't worked with materials very much. Grouts, mortars, concretes, etc. (hell, just a mixture of sand and water) 'gels' rather quickly achieving a measure of stability. Mix them up and they will again 'flow'. Let them sit for just a few minutes and they bind again. We're not talking 'curing', it's just the irregular shapes of the particles settling into interlocking positions with each other. When grouts are pumped into cracks or bores for soil stabilization, you have to get it moving and keep it moving or the process comes to a grinding halt.JB