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Author Topic:   Sinning for Others
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 43 (753529)
03-20-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


Throwing Stones
Jon writes:
Do you believe in unforgivable sin?
The only sin that is unforgivable to to ignore ones conscience(Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) which, I believe everyone has an awareness of...even if they see Him merely as their own conscience. To repeatedly and knowingly denying and/or ignoring what we (I) am called to do is unforgivable, in my mind. I could never feel comfortable with myself...nevermind what God thinks.
Jon writes:
If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?
I would never knowing do anything were I to believe I would be damned eternally...or even briefly!

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 43 (753641)
03-21-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
03-20-2015 1:24 PM


Interesting Article
I read an interesting article in The National Examiner that touched on the concept of sin.
How The Modern Church Helped Create A God That People Hate
The article starts out explaining the concept of an angry God--ala Jonathan Edwards:
Jonathan Edwards-July 8, 1741 writes:
They are now the Objects of that very same Anger & Wrath of God that is expressed in the Torments of Hell: and the Reason why they don’t go down to Hell at each Moment, is not because God, in whose Power they are, is not then very angry with them; as angry as he is with many of those miserable Creatures that he is now tormenting in Hell, and do there feel and bear the fierceness of his Wrath. Yea God is a great deal more angry with great Numbers that are now on Earth, yea doubtless with many that are now in this Congregation, that it may be are at Ease and Quiet, than he is with many of those that are now in the Flames of Hell. So that it is not because God is unmindful of their Wickedness, and don’t resent it, that he don’t let loose his Hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, tho’ they may imagine him to be so. The Wrath of God burns against them, their Damnation don’t slumber, the Pit is prepared, the Fire is made ready, the Furnace is now hot, ready to receive them, the Flames do now rage and glow. The glittering Sword is whet, and held over them, and the Pit hath opened her Mouth under them. The Devil stands ready to fall upon them and seize them as his own, at what Moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their Souls in his Possession, and under his Dominion.
The God portrayed in "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God" is then contrasted with the lovey dovey God of megachurch Pastor Joel Osteen.
Joel Osteen-May 18, 2014 writes:
he good news is God already approved you.
Quit working for something you already have.
When He created you he looked at you and said that was good.
Don’t be insecure and intimidated.
If people don’t want to be your friend let them go.
There’s freedom when you realize you’re not waiting for it — you’re already approved.
The Creator of the universe has already blessed me.
You may not feel blessed.
Your checking account may not look blessed.
You’ve got to believe it then you’ll see it.
Declare I am blessed.
I am prosperous.
I am the head and not the tail.
That activates the blessing.
Hold your head up high.
Walk with confidence.
You’re royalty.
Destined to reign.
Go get your healing, dreams, abundance, and victory with your name on it.
You don’t have to pray for what you already have.
Just start acting like it's true.
The author argues that both men were essentially megachurch evangelists of their day and asks
quote:
So to what does history owe this progression of theology from fear in light of a God who cannot abide the proud to pride in light of a God who cannot abide fear?
The author argues that both preachers appeal to emotionalism in a good cop/bad cop sort of way. While modern Christianity is no better than "feel good therapy", the author comes to the crux of his point.
quote:
And so humans refuse a God who stands in judgment over them, standing in judgment over God instead. They either create a soft and comfortable God, or they injure this cosmic authority figure in the only way they know how: insults and unbelief.
Perhaps I have altered the context which the author intended, so I recommend reading this one page article.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:24 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 43 (761832)
07-06-2015 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
03-20-2015 2:12 PM


Sin by definition
Theodoric writes:
Don't believe in sin.
Sin implies a deity of some sort an a transgression against this deity. Therefore since I have no belief in a deity, I have no belief in sin.
I suppose the question is whether sin is a belief or a definition of transgression in general.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 43 (762149)
07-09-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mal
07-09-2015 10:36 AM


Re: First post >.<
Welcome to EvC, Mal.
I think that what Jon meant was to ask if any one of us would...of their own free will...take on the sin of another (kinda like Jesus did) even if it meant we would perish as a result.
I might be wrong, however.
We often go round and round on the same basic subjects, here. mal.
Hows Sweden, by the way?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM Mal has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 43 (762278)
07-10-2015 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-10-2015 11:54 AM


Re: First post >.<
It would seem to me the whole idea is whether the Judge has any right to hold you accountable to an arbitrary standard. I would argue that he does, in fact, have that power and that right. You may argue about the right...after all, freethinkers love loopholes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 43 (762341)
07-11-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
07-10-2015 8:06 PM


Re: First post >.<
Lets try saying it another way. "Whosoever speaks against what they know their conscience to be...". There. Does that ever happen? Well basically it shouldn't. The disconnect is obvious.
If we keep going against what we know to be correct, we are in trouble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 07-10-2015 8:06 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 07-11-2015 10:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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