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Author
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Topic: Sinning for Others
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 5 of 43 (753535)
03-20-2015 1:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
03-20-2015 12:47 PM
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Re: Throwing Stones
The only sin that is unforgivable to to ignore ones conscience(Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) That's not what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. Jesus had healed a man through the power of the Holy Spirit and then the Pharisees said that Jesus had used Beelzebub's power to do it. That's what Jesus said Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. Its when God does something and then you go: "Nah, that wasn't God that was the devil." From Matthew 12:
quote:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Phat, posted 03-20-2015 12:47 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 6 of 43 (753538)
03-20-2015 1:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM
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Do you believe in unforgivable sin?
What do you consider these sins to be? The Bible says that the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is when God does something and you say that it wasn't God but something else that did it. See previous message. I think that it works the other way around too. So if you do something and you know it wasn't from God, but then you go and tell people that it was God that did it, then I think that counts too. Like televangelists who act like they're filled with the Holy Spirit, but they're just lying and faking it so people will give them money. It makes sense to me that God would be totally against that; being an impostor of God. It takes His place and it makes Him look bad.
If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment? Nope.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM | | Jon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:24 PM | | New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 15 of 43 (762162)
07-09-2015 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Mal
07-09-2015 10:36 AM
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Re: First post >.<
We were told that there is only one unforgivable sin and that has been explained (blasphemy of the HS). What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you? Can you give an example of it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM | | Mal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 1:09 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied | | | Message 19 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:14 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 17 of 43 (762176)
07-09-2015 2:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-09-2015 1:09 PM
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Re: First post >.<
Cat Sci writes: What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you?
To me it seems like a catch-all no-escape clause: "Thou shalt not A, B, C... or anything else that God doesn't want you to do." As iano used to say, it's impossible to obey the law. That's not how the Bible describes it. I outlined that in Message 5:
quote:
Jesus had healed a man through the power of the Holy Spirit and then the Pharisees said that Jesus had used Beelzebub's power to do it. That's what Jesus said Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. Its when God does something and then you go: "Nah, that wasn't God that was the devil." From Matthew 12:
quote:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I expanded on that in Message 6:
quote:
I think that it works the other way around too. So if you do something and you know it wasn't from God, but then you go and tell people that it was God that did it, then I think that counts too. Like televangelists who act like they're filled with the Holy Spirit, but they're just lying and faking it so people will give them money. It makes sense to me that God would be totally against that; being an impostor of God. It takes His place and it makes Him look bad.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 1:09 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 20 of 43 (762200)
07-09-2015 3:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Mal
07-09-2015 3:14 PM
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Re: First post >.<
I would say it is as you have explained in another post. Making a false claim or speaking wrongly of the HS. Would you also agree with my Message 6 that it goes the other way too? That is, a televangelist, for instance, who is lying about the HS being behind his magic tricks is committing the sin of blaspheming the HS?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:14 PM | | Mal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:46 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 22 of 43 (762211)
07-09-2015 3:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Mal
07-09-2015 3:46 PM
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Re: First post >.<
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death." Man... OT God was vicious! There'd be a lot of people today that He'd have put to death if that was still a rule.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:46 PM | | Mal has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 28 of 43 (762281)
07-10-2015 12:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-10-2015 11:54 AM
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Re: First post >.<
I think you're being too specific. Blasphemy is all about attitude and respect. I call it a catch-all because "the judge" can always say, "I don't like your attitude," - i.e. he can find you in contempt whether you intended contempt or not. Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit is different than just your regular old everyday blasphemy, which presumably is forgivable. Also, if the judge is God then he should be able to look inside you and see if your contempt was intended, so that analogy isn't working for me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 11:54 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:08 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 31 of 43 (762285)
07-10-2015 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
07-10-2015 12:08 PM
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Re: First post >.<
Sez you. And I'm right.
It's the fact that you don't know how He will react that makes it impossible to obey the law. Meh, you'll be forgiven. The question was about an unforgivable sin.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:23 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 33 of 43 (762288)
07-10-2015 12:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
07-10-2015 12:23 PM
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Re: First post >.<
And my answer was that the definition of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is too wishy-washy for us to be sure we're not doing it. Huh? You just said I was being too specific, now its wishy-washy? Make sense already 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:36 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 35 of 43 (762296)
07-10-2015 2:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
07-10-2015 12:36 PM
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Re: First post >.<
Yes. The definition is wishy-washy and you're cherry-picking one possibility to make it simple. No, the story I posted is the only mention of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and is the only mention of an unforgivable sin. It can't be cherry-picking when there's only one piece of fruit. I agree that blasphemy, in general, is fairly nebulous. But its not an unforgivable sin. And the single example that we have of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is fairly well-defined and even comes with a concrete example. I think you're just equivocating.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by ringo, posted 07-10-2015 12:36 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by Jon, posted 07-10-2015 8:06 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied | | | Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-11-2015 12:07 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 40 of 43 (762447)
07-12-2015 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
07-10-2015 8:06 PM
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Whether the example is helpful or not, it's pretty clear that the sin itself is pretty open ended. Notice that the sin itself is defined as "but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost". That's not very specific at all. You're just pointing to the summary, its more specific than just that. There's the concrete example before them that Jesus explains further with an analogy. Its quite detailed so I don't understand how you can complain that it isn't specific. I posted the whole section already, there's more to it than "but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost".
As a directive, it couldn't be any more useless. Sure it could, it could have contained a lot less.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by Jon, posted 07-10-2015 8:06 PM | | Jon has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by Jon, posted 07-12-2015 12:50 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 41 of 43 (762450)
07-12-2015 12:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
07-11-2015 12:07 PM
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Re: First post >.<
You're still not making sense, Ringo.
Cat Sci writes: No, the story I posted is the only mention of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and is the only mention of an unforgivable sin.
That's the problem. You can't derive a general principle from one example. You have one cherry in the nebula but you have no basis for drawing a line. What is this general principle I have derived and what line have I drawn?
That's the problem. How did this problem go from me cherry-picking one possibility to make it simple to now me only having one example to choose from so its not enough?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-11-2015 12:07 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by ringo, posted 07-12-2015 2:22 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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