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Author Topic:   Open-minded Skepticism
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 85 (759080)
06-08-2015 4:47 PM


Skepticism is a good thing !!!
Really ... be a skeptic, as long as there is no concrete proof of the subject. In the face of absolute proof, skepticism = "Mary, Mary, quite contrary!"

Since the site is supposed to be about evolution versus creation ... I pose a question. What is the purpose of "God"?
Are we all put on this Earth to prove ourselves worthy to be ... God's friend? Only those who meet his criteria get to sit at his table? Is this the purpose?
I am skeptical.
I believe the purpose of "God" is to give people purpose. Period. Man created "God" so that he sees himself as more than just another animal in the evolutionary chain. Most people cannot conceive the fact that, when the chemical/electrical processes of the brain stop, so do you.
My skepticism fades ... body dies, brain ceases to function ... you cease to exist.

"God" is a creation of man to avoid that conclusion.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2015 4:28 PM mikechell has responded
 Message 32 by 1.61803, posted 06-10-2015 2:56 PM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 25 of 85 (759193)
06-09-2015 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
06-09-2015 4:28 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
However, being skeptical of everything, taken to extremes, leaves you with no reason to investigate new things.

I thought being skeptical of ideas or theories IS being open minded. If you take everything at face value, THEN you don't investigate options.

Anyway, thank you for the quotation help. I just asked about that on another thread.

And thanks for the welcome.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 06-09-2015 4:28 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 85 (759253)
06-10-2015 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 8:28 AM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
What we believe affects how we define facts and evidence, not the other way around.

So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

The cat's alive !!


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 8:28 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 9:24 AM mikechell has responded
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 85 (759286)
06-10-2015 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 9:24 AM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
So, as long as you believe the rock is soft, like a nerf ball, it won't hurt you when it hits you in the head???

I prefer to believe everyone here is interested in civil dialogue, mike, but in your case my skepticism is starting to get the better of me.

I wasn't intending to be "uncivil" ... nor was I saying I'd throw a rock at you. I just used that as an example to disagree with the statement,

What we believe affects how we define facts and evidence, not the other way around.

Facts are concrete ... what you believe does not change the facts. Circumstantial evidence might be interpreted incorrectly ... factual evidence cannot, no matter what you believe.
Facts and evidence of facts should change how one believes, if previous beliefs were proven wrong.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 9:24 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by MrHambre, posted 06-10-2015 2:55 PM mikechell has responded
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mikechell
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 33 of 85 (759294)
06-10-2015 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by MrHambre
06-10-2015 2:55 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
I replied to "pop science" (your inference that it's false) with "pop bible".
I disputed that belief can alter the facts or the evidence of facts ... a premise you subscribe to and seem to believe and I don't.

I guess you can consider my uncivil, since I did respond to you without agreeing with you ... but I don't understand how I didn't "engage" you? I countered your statements ... that's part of a debate, no?


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 85 (759295)
06-10-2015 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by 1.61803
06-10-2015 2:56 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
But everything you ever have done continues to send ripples throughout the universe.

Sorry, but no. Your ripples die out as soon as your brain does. Yes, your memory lingers in those who choose to remember you, but if no one does, then you don't ripple.
The memory of your existance still exist.

but not the part of you than can not die, the memory of you.

Exactly my point. Everyone likes to believe they'll "live on". But it's just not true. Granted, you might leave a memory, but those only last until they no longer are important to the "rememberer". You ceased to exist long before that.
Nah, we all base most of our decisions on belief rather than hard evidence, otherwise nothing would get done.

It is blind belief that causes "nothing would get done". Skepticism drives the search for truth. Belief does not require truth, or action, it just "is". And it causes stagnation.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by 1.61803, posted 06-10-2015 2:56 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by 1.61803, posted 06-10-2015 4:05 PM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 85 (759351)
06-10-2015 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by 1.61803
06-10-2015 4:05 PM


Re: Skepticism is a good thing !!!
You have evidence of this?

Since all brain activity is electro-chemical, once it stops, death. Once the body dies, there is no way to continue the thoughts that made the person. That person ceases to exist.

I can also refute your above statement by saying the finger nail, hair and toenail matrix continues production post mortum.

Actually, no they don't. It's been an accepted fact for some time, the skin recedes, the nails and hair don't grow.

if by "live on" you mean your physical body

No, I was referring to the fantasy of a "soul" that will know heaven or hell.

All people and memories are not created equal and some are more memorable than others.

True ... memories will live on. Books keep some memories around longer. But memories aren't "Souls" and the individual is not alive just because memories are.

Skeptics do not have to do anything but be skeptical.

That argument could be said of anybody. But being skeptical means you question the validity of something. Sure, you could stop at that, but most don't. If only to prove your skepticism, most will research and discover the truth.
By your argument, the "faithful" have no need to research ... they believe and that's enough for them.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by 1.61803, posted 06-10-2015 4:05 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 85 (759362)
06-10-2015 7:22 PM


new and confused ... who is E and who is C
LOL Maybe I am confusing issues that aren't so confusing. I was talking about my perceptions and conclusions that there is no "soul" that lives on after a person dies. There is no heaven or hell, and even if there was, there's no electro-chemical way for a person to know where they ended up because the brain activity has ceased.
I was simply offering another point of view that our lives are more than the sum of its physical parts. That we are the ones that give meaning to our lives.

I am cool with this. Memories of you can live on long after you are gone.

Thank you for the welcome, Omnivorous.

Circumstantial evidence might be interpreted incorrectly ... factual evidence cannot, no matter what you believe.

Surely you don't mean that literally: we are regularly treated here to the misinterpretation of factual evidence.

I stand by what I say, this time. Factual evidence can only be misinterpreted by those who refuse to accept it. Refusal to accept a fact does not change that fact.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 85 (759369)
06-10-2015 8:03 PM


Okay ... we're cool!
Well I believe there will be a life after death, maybe even a heaven or hell, and that the evidence shows that Evolution is a fact and so far the Theory of Evolution is the only one that can explain what is seen. Does that help?

You're like my Wife. I've told her god's 6 days took about 12 billion of our years. We're somewhere in the middle of the 7th day and he's still resting. (which explains his lack of interaction) She likes that explanation.

What makes a fact a fact, Mike?

Fact requires physical proof of existence. Fact requires observable cause and effect.

Edited by mikechell, : No reason given.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 85 (759390)
06-11-2015 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Coyote
06-10-2015 8:37 PM


Re: Facts and theories
Fact requires physical proof of existence. Fact requires observable cause and effect.

I disagree about the cause and effect--explaining facts is the role of hypotheses and theories.

Fact: when an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact.

Your own definition of "fact" is that cause and effect must be repeatedly observable.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 85 (759411)
06-11-2015 6:42 AM


Okay ... I'll give up.
You're right ... I was mistaken.
Facts mean nothing.
Observation is worthless.
Your beliefs win and nothing in the world is definite fact.

Off I go into my own world, you can keep this one.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

Replies to this message:
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 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2015 10:45 AM mikechell has responded
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 85 (759457)
06-11-2015 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
06-11-2015 10:45 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
You seem to be deliberately misstating what I have said.

YOU seem to believe I was talking to you and your statements.

You're observational skills might need a little ... honing.


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 85 (759464)
06-11-2015 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by MrHambre
06-11-2015 3:00 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
If facts are tainted by my belief, then my observation that facts mean nothing is no less "real" than any other observation.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 3:00 PM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 4:24 PM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 85 (759468)
06-11-2015 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre
06-11-2015 4:24 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
I am not beating any drum. I was ... when I was stating what I know to be the definition of a fact.
From the dictionary ...
noun:
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth

2. something known to exist or to have happened

3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true

But since you've all "piled on" to push your point that a fact is indeed NOT concrete, I've put down the drum. It's you who still wants to argue a pointless "fact".


evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 4:24 PM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 7:29 PM mikechell has responded

  
mikechell
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 85 (759473)
06-11-2015 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by MrHambre
06-11-2015 7:29 PM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
I don't consider it a pointless fact that our knowledge depends on context. It's not a pointless fact that truth is culturally constructed.

Again ... I will point out that a fact is a hard, cold truth that shapes the way we think. The way we think does not change the fact. You cannot call a thought, or an idea, or a half truth ... a fact. Once it is a set, repeatable truth or result, only then can it be considered a fact.

The sun rises and sets; true fact but false.

It is NOT a true fact. The FACT is that the Earth rotates. Just because someone wants to BELIEVE the sun rises and sets does NOT make it a fact.

evidence over faith ... observation over theory

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by MrHambre, posted 06-11-2015 7:29 PM MrHambre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 06-11-2015 9:21 PM mikechell has responded

  
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