Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Open-minded Skepticism
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 85 (759373)
06-10-2015 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mikechell
06-10-2015 8:03 PM


Re: Okay ... we're cool!
Fact requires observable cause and effect.

And how do we figure out what causes produce what effects?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mikechell, posted 06-10-2015 8:03 PM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 85 (759410)
06-11-2015 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mikechell
06-11-2015 12:45 AM


Re: Facts and theories
Your own definition of "fact" is that cause and effect must be repeatedly observable.

Coyote's definition of fact has nothing to do with cause and effect.

We can observe that the sun rises in the east without any reference to the possible causes or effects of this event.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mikechell, posted 06-11-2015 12:45 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 70 of 85 (759499)
06-12-2015 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by mikechell
06-12-2015 6:54 AM


Re: I'll try this again ...
I say, a fact is irrefutable

If a fact is irrefutable then it has no place in science.

What's more, it would mean that there are, essentially, no such things as 'facts', since history has shown us that pretty much everything we've known at any particular time has eventually been shown to be wrong in some way and that everything we know today will also likely be shown wrong at some time in the future.

So it is you who think facts mean nothing. Everyone else here, by understanding facts in their context and relationship to us and what we already know, appreciates the way facts weave together with our lives, our experiences, and our prejudices to create deeper understandings of the world around us.

Observation does NOT change fact.

Your understanding of 'fact' is entirely useless.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by mikechell, posted 06-12-2015 6:54 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 85 (759519)
06-12-2015 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by 1.61803
06-12-2015 10:36 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
I bought a pack of small yellow notebooks once. Used them for writing everything. Then one day I noticed that the package called them "green". What the hell?

So I pointed it out to my girlfriend, "Look, these things say that they're green."

"That's because they are," she said.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by 1.61803, posted 06-12-2015 10:36 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 85 (759575)
06-13-2015 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by mikechell
06-13-2015 9:29 AM


Re: Okay ... I'll give up.
Once the true facts are known

How can we know that we know a 'true fact' and how can we know that the fact is 'true'?

Changing the observation will not change the facts.

How exactly do you think we get facts?

Because we either gather them through observation of the world around us or make them up in our heads.

Which one is it?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 9:29 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 85 (759586)
06-13-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by mikechell
06-13-2015 10:40 AM


Re: bicker, bicker, bicker ...
Color itself doesn't even exist outside our ability to observe it.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 10:40 AM mikechell has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 11:38 AM Jon has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 78 of 85 (759593)
06-13-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by mikechell
06-13-2015 11:38 AM


Re: bicker, bicker, bicker ...
Green is in the electro-magnetic spectrum.

Nope.

The wavelengths are on the spectrum.

But the color is a reaction of our eyes, brain, and other factors to those wavelengths.

The color green is still there ... even if no one is around to observe it.

Or maybe it's the color yellow...


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mikechell, posted 06-13-2015 11:38 AM mikechell has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 81 of 85 (759611)
06-13-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by RAZD
06-13-2015 1:27 PM


Re: such fun
What you see depends on what you look with.

Pff... five is nothing.

I'm sure if we asked a mantis shrimp what he thought of our 'color facts', our ignorance of 'reality' would give him quite a laugh.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by RAZD, posted 06-13-2015 1:27 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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