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Author Topic:   Discontinuing research about ID
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 393 (755124)
04-04-2015 4:52 PM


From the link:

Through lack of interest our research is now discontinued

Good. Maybe you can now turn your interests toward something productive.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 49 of 393 (755175)
04-05-2015 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dubreuil
04-05-2015 3:48 PM


As a test, I'm going to define criteria based on the characteristics of oranges.

Once I get those, I'm going to test a whole bunch of fruit.

My hypothesis is that I will be able to match oranges to a high degree of accuracy.

Hmmm. Seems to work every time!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dubreuil, posted 04-05-2015 3:48 PM Dubreuil has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 119 of 393 (755369)
04-07-2015 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dubreuil
04-07-2015 12:26 PM


The other is the residual uncertainty of 1:10^3 about a triune God.

So my Native American friends are right about Eagle, Hummingbird, and Coyote?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dubreuil, posted 04-07-2015 12:26 PM Dubreuil has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 157 of 393 (756023)
04-14-2015 8:54 PM


What a theory really is
Deubreuil writes:

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause


"Intelligent design" is not a theory, certainly not a scientific theory.

It is really a religious belief trying (unsuccessfully) to masquerade as a scientific theory.

To be a scientific theory, there are a few steps that must be included that intelligent design leaves out, probably hoping nobody will notice.

Here are a couple of definitions of theory:

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.

Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]

When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.

In essence, a scientific theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts--but it is an explanation that has been rigorously tested, explains all the relevant facts, is not contradicted by any relevant facts, and can make successful predictions.

Intelligent design fails on all of these points.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 174 of 393 (756316)
04-17-2015 11:42 PM


...one needs to understand there can be quite a difference between a real-life concept and a mathematical model of it

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/.../bumblebees.asp#PosOUobeHicEI4J8.99


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(5)
Message 201 of 393 (756463)
04-20-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by New Cat's Eye
04-20-2015 2:53 PM


You kept all the positives and disregarded all the negatives.

Hey! That's just how evolution works, too!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-20-2015 2:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-20-2015 4:16 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 212 of 393 (756495)
04-21-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Dr Adequate
04-21-2015 11:17 AM


I'm going to allow posts like this until Dubreuil responds to my request in Message 186 that he be very clear about what portions of his paper we should be ignoring.

I don't think he knows which portions of his paper we should be ignoring.

I have an idea! Let's ignore all portions of his paper.

And let's follow the recommendation in his thread title, and "discontinue research about ID" as well.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-21-2015 11:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 224 of 393 (756526)
04-21-2015 10:57 PM


Dubreuil (back in the OP) writes:

I also want to warn every scientist who considers to write a research paper about intelligent design to not do so.

Real scientists do not write about things based only on dogma, scripture, and the like. Real scientists rely on evidence.

It is well known that ID is the illegitimate stepchild of dogma, scripture, and belief, with the serial numbers filed off in the vain hope that ID "scientists" will be able to fool people. Don't believe this? Google "cdesign proponentsists" to see just how dishonest IDers are. And that's only one example.

IDers and creation "scientists" are the exact opposite of real scientists, as they begin with the desired conclusion and use every dishonest method available to "support" that conclusion. They have to ignore or deny huge amounts of contrary data, and make up data to support their claims. They have to do this as the real data contradicts their claims.

And creationists are very often totally ignorant of real science. We see a lot of that on this website. On another website I was firmly assured by a creationist that evolution was impossible because the odds against it were 1720. (This did not impress very many readers, but the poster never figured out why.)

So, in answer to your title in the OP, "Discontinuing research about ID." I can only say, "Thank you! I agree."


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 229 of 393 (756565)
04-22-2015 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by RAZD
04-22-2015 2:41 PM


Re: wtf???
So, to use an old phrase, you caught him palming the pea, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by RAZD, posted 04-22-2015 2:41 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by NoNukes, posted 04-23-2015 10:47 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 331 of 393 (759388)
06-11-2015 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by GaryG
06-10-2015 10:53 PM


Re: Theory of Intelligent Design - Get it here!
Intelligent design is not a scientific theory.

It is a religious belief masquerading as science in the hopes of fooling a few school boards or a court somewhere. In both of these it has failed.

ID certainly meets none of the requirements of a scientific theory.

Below is some information on what a scientific theory is:

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws.

Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]

When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.

For more information on what a court found ID to be, see: Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al.

http://www.talkorigins.org/...tzmiller_v_dover_decision.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by GaryG, posted 06-10-2015 10:53 PM GaryG has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by GaryG, posted 06-11-2015 12:53 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
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