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Author Topic:   Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 30 (762436)
07-11-2015 10:56 PM


Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan?

This quote speaks of God choosing Jesus as a human sacrifice to take our just punishment for our sins. Dogma says that we cannot redeem ourselves from God condemnation. 1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement as judge and shows the setting and accepting of a bribe or human sacrifice to corrupt his justice. That justice usually stated that only the punishment of the guilty was acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish the innocent. The corruption of God’s usual justice is what the bribe or sacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

Recognizing that by whatever name you would use, sacrifice, ransom, bribe or payment, would you say such an immoral request and legal injustice would most likely be demanded by a God or by a Satan?

If punishing the innocent is not a just and moral thing to do, I would say that Satan would be the one to ask or demand such a sacrifice.

That would have Satan ruling heaven and not God as a good God would not do such an immoral thing.

Do you agree that Satan is more likely to ask for us to accept an immoral human sacrifice to bail us out than God would?

If you agree, does that indicate that Satan was ruling in heaven and not God on that day?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by ringo, posted 07-12-2015 3:44 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
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Message 2 of 30 (762438)
07-12-2015 9:23 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Who ruled heaven on this day. God or Satan? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
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Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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(1)
Message 3 of 30 (762439)
07-12-2015 9:36 AM


Yawn.

Perhaps you might learn if you could get beyond thinking in bumper sticker sized bites.

1Peter is actually longer than just one line quoted out of context and totally unrelated to your topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 4 of 30 (762467)
07-12-2015 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-11-2015 10:56 PM


First Things First
Keep in mind that no created thing ever rules in Heaven. Only the uncaused first cause...Creator of all seen and unseen rules in heaven.

And, no, we are not God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 30 (762468)
07-12-2015 3:03 PM


I guess that you both did not recognize that this thread is on the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Do you agree that Satan is more likely to ask for us to accept an immoral human sacrifice to bail us out than God would?

I do understand though why those of faith would not like to deal with a moral questions that show that God is quite the vile and immoral demiurge.

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-12-2015 3:37 PM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2015 6:13 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 6 of 30 (762470)
07-12-2015 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Greatest I am
07-12-2015 3:03 PM


GIA writes:

guess that you both did not recognize that this thread is on the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Do you agree that Satan is more likely to ask for us to accept an immoral human sacrifice to bail us out than God would?

I do understand though why those of faith would not like to deal with a moral questions that show that God is quite the vile and immoral demiurge.

Actually, I can read and even understand what is written.

And your quote taken out of context from 1Peter has nothing to do with substitutionary atonement.

But should you wish to learn I will be happen to once again attempt to explain the basics to you.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:38 PM jar has responded
 Message 15 by Greatest I am, posted 07-13-2015 9:03 AM jar has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 7 of 30 (762472)
07-12-2015 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-12-2015 3:37 PM


jar

Your mantra is duly noted.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-12-2015 3:37 PM jar has responded

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ringo
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Posts: 16681
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Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 8 of 30 (762474)
07-12-2015 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-11-2015 10:56 PM


Greatest I am writes:

Do you agree that Satan is more likely to ask for us to accept an immoral human sacrifice to bail us out than God would?


No. The character Satan is not an entity. He is a plot device, God's foil. He can not do anything "separate" from God.

Edited by ringo, : Punktuation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-11-2015 10:56 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 30 (762475)
07-12-2015 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
07-12-2015 3:44 PM


ringo

No arguing that.

If the antagonist is a plot device then so is the hero.

Good cannot prove itself without defeating evil in most literature.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 07-12-2015 3:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16681
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 10 of 30 (762476)
07-12-2015 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
07-12-2015 3:48 PM


Greatest I am writes:

If the antagonist is a plot device then so is the hero.


That doesn't follow. A fictional foil or soliloquy represents a person's thoughts. Real people have conflicting thoughts too.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:48 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 30 (762479)
07-12-2015 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
07-12-2015 3:56 PM


ringo

I agree with your last but you confuse the issue by mixing real and fictional.

KIS is the way to go.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 07-12-2015 3:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30997
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 12 of 30 (762484)
07-12-2015 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Greatest I am
07-12-2015 3:38 PM


Does that mean that as in the past you are uninterested in learning?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:38 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12445
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 30 (762486)
07-12-2015 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Greatest I am
07-12-2015 3:03 PM


Substitute Teacher
GIA writes:

this thread is on the morality of substitutionary atonement.

OK...lemme pull some stuff together and make a decent post....

Wiki writes:

Technically speaking, substitutionary atonement is the name given to a number of Christian models of the atonement that all regard Jesus as dying as a substitute for others, 'instead of' them.(...)There are a number of differing theories that come under the umbrella term 'substitutionary atonement'.[4] The four best known are the Early Church Fathers' ransom theory; Gustaf Aulen's demystified version of the ransom theory, called Christus Victor; Anselm of Canterbury's satisfaction theory; and the Reformed period's penal substitution theory.

I must admit that even though my "club" ascribes to substitutionary atonement...not sure specifically which model...though the first one seems the most common.

Some have said that it seems a bit ridiculous for God to have had to go to such ends for something(forgiveness) that could have simply been done without involving a sacrifice.

GIA writes:

I do understand though why those of faith would not like to deal with a moral questions that show that God is quite the vile and immoral demiurge.

I can't quite understand why you seem so eager to villify God, as we understand Him. You have said before that we are the only "god" that will ever be. I disagree with that, and believe in a Being that created all seen and unseen and Who chooses to love humanity while still allowing us the ability to be free (if we so choose) from His communion and influence. The subject does bring up some questions and challenges for prevailing dogma, however.

In my mind, jesus was never "Plan B" in response to human deception through satan. Jesus...in the beginning (before Lucifer even fell to become satan) was Gods answer to our wrong choice---as humanity---on desiring freedom from "forced" communion. The snake promised that we would be like God...knowing good and evil. The price, however, was condemnation---the same condemnation that satan received in choosing to become autocratic and free from Gods Communion.

Jesus was the foreknown conclusion to satans willful rebellion...which allowed potentialized evil to become actualized evil. (of course this is all my self contrived belief and theory...so I digress.....)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Greatest I am, posted 07-12-2015 3:03 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 07-13-2015 9:00 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 30 (762537)
07-13-2015 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2015 6:13 PM


Re: Substitute Teacher
Phat

The model of God/Jesus, the only perfect lamb of God, and the only man who cannot sin, because he is God as well, we are all born in Original Sin except for him, --- is the model forced upon us. We, apparently, have no other way to atone for our God given sin natures. We must accept the punishment of an innocent man or end in hell and death.

This all because Eve was deceived by a talking serpent, some think Satan, that God put in Eden to insure that Eve was deceived. God had planned for Eve to fail, which is why he had already planned to have Jesus murdered. I say murdered because he had planned that murder even before the potential of the first sin. As you say, ludicrous. I add immoral, which is why I vilify that vile demiurge, Yahweh.

Yahweh’s plan of having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs we have done, --- so that we might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. This is irrefutable. If that is immoral then we sin if we accept that murder and try to profit from it for our heavenly benefit.

Every justice system tries hard to punish the guilty and here Yahweh think it just to punish the innocent.

You said, “allowing us the ability to be free (if we so choose) from His communion and influence.”

This is false. Born in Original Sin, you cannot be free of God’s condemnation and you must accept and try to profit from Jesus’ murder.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2015 6:13 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 553 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 15 of 30 (762538)
07-13-2015 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-12-2015 3:37 PM


jar

Thanks buddy. Follow your bliss.

You seem to know when God created the plan to have Jesus murdered. Enlighten us if you care to do so.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 07-12-2015 3:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 07-13-2015 9:20 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
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