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Author Topic:   White Privilege
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 276 (766394)
08-17-2015 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
08-17-2015 8:24 AM


Reverse Discrimination?
Hello RAZD! I don't know whether you intended this topic to be a serious discussion of the social definition and application of white privilege or whether the irony of the cartoon was the focus.
Assuming the former, I will comment on this sociological status. As a white male, born into a middle class family, I was brought up unaware of any sort of privileged life. If anything, i sensed a bit of entitlement due to the fact that my father had worked hard to get to his station in life and I felt as if he paved the way for me to have an easy life. The opposite has been the case, but overall my life has been blessed.
Several years ago, a friend of mine who grew up in a minority culture (he is Latino) brought the whole idea of white privilege up to me. Quite naturally I saw it as an attack on me...sort of a reverse discrimination type of thing, and still feel that way, admittedly, from time to time. Quite honestly, i behave quite like the social scientists who write these books say I will behave. Im all for ending discrimination in society, but I'll be damned if i'm going to give up anything that i now have. (pray for me)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 08-17-2015 8:24 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 8:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 276 (766416)
08-18-2015 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
08-17-2015 9:42 PM


Re: Privilege Revisited
When the affirmative action program was instituted to try to rectify this unfair advantage, white men raised holy hell over the same perception of "reverse discrimination" that people have mentioned here. Part of white privilege is the resentment of admitting that the white man's supremacy hasn't been earned through fair competition in a meritocracy, but because of inequities which have been constantly reinforced over the course of centuries.
wiki writes:
At issue in affirmative action cases is whether the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment can be employed to advance the welfare of one class of individuals for compelling social reasons even when that advancement may infringe in some way upon the life or liberty of another. The continuing existence of affirmative action laws and programs suggests that so far, the Supreme Court's answer has been yes.
I dont really have an opinion at this time, but would likely be so inclined should such a ruling hinder my life and welfare personally.
Perhaps I need to trust God more.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 08-17-2015 9:42 PM MrHambre has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 276 (766546)
08-19-2015 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by RAZD
08-18-2015 2:24 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
randomness is akin to socialism. I believe that people should be chosen strictly based on ability. Why not leave names and other data that identifies a cultural racial profile and judge workers entirely on merit?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 2:24 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 276 (766547)
08-19-2015 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
08-18-2015 8:44 PM


Re: Reverse Discrimination?
RAZD writes:
Do you feel entitled to maintain the status quo even though it is not just?
Whats the alternative? I don't feel that my generation should be punished due to the sins of our forefathers, if that's what you mean.
I will admit that there are no easy solutions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 08-18-2015 8:44 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2015 8:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 276 (766636)
08-19-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
08-19-2015 3:54 PM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
It's not wrong for any class of people to aspire to that kind of freedom and those that have should only be criticised if they pull up the ladder and discriminate against those that haven't got there.
Exactly. im all for others gaining the rights I now have as well as the invisible perks. Perhaps it these perks which white people don't understand. they grew up with them, it could be said.
Thus I see the argument. Again, there are no easy solutions.
Should the wealthier man be required to give more liberally than the poor man?
By analogy, are white people "wealthier" sociologically than are minorities?
Should this giving be forced or merely encouraged? I say the latter. If you try and force it you will create a whole new set of problems.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2015 3:54 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 276 (766680)
08-20-2015 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tangle
08-20-2015 2:04 AM


Re: some privilege
Tangle writes:
I'm simply making the point that those enjoying the full freedoms of society should not be regarded as having a negative value in that society; calling it a white privilege as though it's a status granted by decree to an elite few is both wrong and divisive.
The reason that there is no easy solution to this is because even if an artificial construct was used by the power of the majority race, correcting this will have to involve some sort of power that takes away from that same group. In my mind, two wrongs don't make a right.
I agree that everyone should be aware of the problem. What I don't agree with is any legislation of power that seeks to take back or take away.
Jar and I used to argue about the Native Americans. I told him that I would never agree to simply give the land back to them---that it would involve hurting a whole new group of people.
Granted the Indians were treated wrong. Granted even that many benefited from this injustice. Point being that taking the land back would cause more harm than good. Some things just need to be forgiven.
Arnold was born with better genes than I was. I could lift weights until the cows came home and never look like him. Should Arnold be punished for superior genetics?
And what of wealthy people and the privilege they enjoy? Should we force all of them to give up their excess money?
Point being that privilege exists in society in many forms.
I agree that "white" people need to be aware. I disagree that any forcible way to somehow level the playing field be instituted against the race at large.
Edited by Phat, : add

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 08-20-2015 2:04 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 08-20-2015 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2015 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 276 (766709)
08-20-2015 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
08-20-2015 11:53 AM


Re: some privilege
How is taking away an artificial construct a wrong?
Good question. Lets invent some hypotheticals and then discuss the specifics.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2015 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2015 3:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 276 (767055)
08-25-2015 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
08-25-2015 3:37 AM


Its Not A White Thing
I think I understand your position. Its the Label that is offensive.
Facts may show us that a large percentage of black men are incarcerated, but it would be improper to infer that blacks have a higher incarceration rate. Reason? Not all blacks do. It is simply incarceration for some of society-at-large.
Facts may also show us that a large percentage of white people have benefitted from cultural advantages which they didn't earn. It would be improper, however, to label this as white privilege.
It is simply privilege in general.The labels don't help.
Is that basically your position?
Edited by Phat, : add

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2015 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by caffeine, posted 08-25-2015 4:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 276 (767098)
08-26-2015 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Rrhain
08-26-2015 1:43 AM


Re: some privilege
Rrhain writes:
Privilege doesn't mean your life is perfect. It means that your life is likely to be better than someone in the same situation who doesn't have your privilege. Poor white people don't have political parties calling them "welfare queens" in order to win elections, for example. You are trying to say that because there are successful black people, that means there is no privilege; that because there are poor white people, this means they aren't privileged. Nobody is saying that all white people have it better than all non-white people.
It's that if you have two people who are in the same situation, the privileged person will likely have a better outcome than the non-privileged person. Not because the privileged person is deliberately trying to keep the non-privileged person down but because society is set up to give the privileged person more help, the benefit of the doubt, the break. A black person is more likely to be stopped, more likely to be questioned, more likely to be detained, more likely to be arrested, more likely to be charged, more likely to be prosecuted, more likely to be tried, more likely to be convicted, and more likely to receive a harsher sentence than a white person. That doesn't mean there aren't any white people in prison. It's that if you're white, the system is going to treat you better than if you're black.
OK, so I'll give you the argument. You make it persuasively. The question remains as to how to rectify the situation without hurting any more classes of people (or individuals).

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 08-26-2015 1:43 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 276 (767126)
08-26-2015 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by MrHambre
08-26-2015 9:02 AM


Re: are we having a misunderstanding?
Mr.Hambre writes:
Like the two-legged man who's not going around deliberately trying to keep amputees down, the white man reaps the benefits of an unfair system, whether or not he's even aware of it.
Again I ask: What solutions can be implemented? Would any other groups get hurt by correcting such benefits?
Is awareness itself the solution? Or...are other measures needed....and if so, how would they be implemented?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by MrHambre, posted 08-26-2015 9:02 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 08-26-2015 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 150 of 276 (778634)
02-22-2016 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by AZPaul3
08-19-2015 10:04 PM


Fairness vs Privilege
White privilege is NOT meant as a positive to whites but as the description of a major problem in our society. As with any problem, the first step to correcting it is to acknowledge it is there, that it exists.
OK. I can acknowledge that it exists. The problem is how to correct it without hurting anyone. Lets say, for example, that I had a superior education and that I was not poor. I apply for a job based on my education,experience, and skills. If I am seriously considered fully equal with all other candidates, that to me is fair. If, on the other hand, I am excluded based on quota hiring in favor of minorities or females I will cry foul. Hurting me is not the way to help others.(Granted I can also see the point of view of a minority that they be equally considered based on their skills and merit. )
White privilege in this society is not some wrong-headed anachronism foisted by egghead liberals onto the political scene but is a reality on the ground that needs to be acknowledged and changed if all peoples are to share, as equals, in the benefits of our society.
The key issue is how the change will be fairly implemented. I can say right now that quota hiring and reverse discrimination are not valid solutions. Any other suggestions?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : added explanation

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Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Modulous, posted 02-22-2016 5:13 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18309
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 276 (778637)
02-22-2016 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Modulous
02-22-2016 5:13 PM


Re: Fairness vs Privilege
I looked up Positive Action. I noted that the definition said
quote:
... to allow selection of a candidate from an "under-represented" group, so long as he or she is no less than equally qualified compared to another potential candidate that is not from the under-represented group.
Its a fine line, I will admit.
I also understand that there are no easy solutions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Modulous, posted 02-22-2016 5:13 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
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