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Author Topic:   Self-Driving Cars
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 142 (767586)
08-30-2015 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
08-30-2015 3:12 PM


Re: Idiots
After a number of years it will automatically be manslaughter and a jail sentence if you are driving and anyone is hurt for whatever reason.

Perhaps. But in the meantime, who gets sued when your autobot hits a 1st year medical student, and the damages are calculated to be an entire doctor's career worth of earnings? You? GM?

Way down the road there won't be a steering wheel and the problem will be solved.

Yeah.

Actually there is a lot of stuff written about this subject already. The discussion here just pokes around at a lot of low hanging fruit.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 08-30-2015 3:12 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-30-2015 6:11 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 142 (767597)
08-30-2015 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
08-30-2015 6:11 PM


Re: Idiots
. What could an occupant of a self-driving car do to be held responsible for an accident?

Exactly how things work out might not be defined by what technology is actually capable of. Having no manual override whatsoever might well be something that may never happen. There are some recent articles about the logic in googles cars getting confused by fixed gear bikes in some situations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...e-googles-self-driving-cars

Obviously this bug will get fixed, but at what point will it be assumed that self driving cars are capable of handling everything.

Some links where some interesting questions are raised.

http://www.wired.com/2012/01/ff_autonomouscars/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/...elf-driving-cars-16016418
http://www.iii.org/...update/self-driving-cars-and-insurance
http://slashdot.org/...-to-take-control-of-self-driving-cars
http://www.latimes.com/...ving-accidents-20150512-story.html
http://www.technologyreview.com/...rs-make-ethical-decisions
http://gizmodo.com/...ng-to-kill-jobs-and-not-jus-1705921308
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2015/06/150615124719.htm
http://www.cnet.com/...-advocates-tangle-with-messy-morality


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 08-30-2015 6:11 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Percy, posted 08-31-2015 10:20 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 142 (767703)
09-01-2015 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Thugpreacha
09-01-2015 2:07 AM


Re: Driving Miss. Daisy
If the car malfunctions and causes harm, it is the owners liability---thus if the car hurts the owner, the owner gets the blame.

Is that the principle we used when those Toyota, Nissan and Honda airbags were injuring and killing people? Of course not!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-01-2015 2:07 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 142 (767783)
09-02-2015 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Percy
09-01-2015 8:30 AM


Re: Google Goes Bladeless, Plus Random Thoughts
This means that self-driving cars have the potential to greatly increase travel times. Imagine driving cross country through empty wide-open spaces at 65 mph instead of 80 mph. The travel time for a trip with 400 highway miles would increase from 5 hours to 6 hours 9 minutes.

That's one way to look at the process. Another way to look at it is that there is a new opportunity to make some very productive use of the entire commute. You may have to travel an extra hour or so to get to Atlanta from Durham North Carolina, but you gain back five hours of useful time in the process. You could be programming or working on a presentation or report for work. Or you might be catching up on some much needed sleep. And you get a bit better gas mileage to boot.

The advantage of not having to drive becomes even more pronounced if some substantial portion of that 400 miles takes you through rush hour traffic during which you cannot drive as fast as the speed limit. Maybe having self driving cars might mean fewer traffic jams.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Percy, posted 09-01-2015 8:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 09-02-2015 1:46 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by Percy, posted 09-02-2015 8:06 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 09-02-2015 12:29 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 39 of 142 (767874)
09-02-2015 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Jon
09-02-2015 6:45 PM


Re: Google Goes Bladeless, Plus Random Thoughts
and it's really hard to see how a company like Google, serious about making money, could be getting behind what is obviously such a bad idea.

What you are calling a bad idea that a money maker should not be involved in has historically been a huge market in which automakers around the world participate and derive enormous financial gains. There is in fact a huge demand for personal transportation systems that are convenient while being horribly expensive and inefficient, and which might even lead vast numbers of us to early graves.

The public transportation system in my area is substandard. I cannot rely on it to get me around downtown or to the next major city and back in less than 2-3 hours. I cannot rely at. all to get me anywhere after about 11:00 pm or before 7 am. By contrast, a car, self driving or not gets me to my destination on my schedule (or that of my clients), runs as late or as early as I choose, and goes everywhere I want to go.

Until the need for that convenience goes away, there is a market for inefficient, timely transportation that goes from point A to point B on a personal schedule.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Jon, posted 09-02-2015 6:45 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 142 (772413)
11-13-2015 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
11-13-2015 3:19 PM


Re: Apparently Google is Serious about 25 mph
Why California stuck Google under the Golf Cart law, and why Google accepted this, is outside my willingness to search, but there it is.

This section of California law is for vehicles that are incapable of going faster than 25 mph. If the car can go faster, then licensing as a regular car is required.

In a follow up article, Google says that they were not ticketed. It also appears that the law would allow golf carts on that stretch of road because the speed limit was no more than 35 mph. Surely the policeman could not have ticketed a golf cart in that situation.

ABE:

Looks like one thing that their goofy license accomplishes is that they cannot actually be ticketed for going 25 in a 35mph zone.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AZPaul3, posted 11-13-2015 3:19 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 142 (781091)
03-31-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by AZPaul3
03-20-2016 8:10 AM


Re: How Safe Are Autonomous Vehicles?
One, of course, would be to keep well back and avoid any potential spill path.

A human in this situation might assess the risk and decide to pass or not to pass. If the human elected to pass, then any negligence involved in his decision might be figured into the liability involved if a spill happens and some disaster results. It is possible that the resulting calamity exceeds all insurance coverage.

If an onboard computer makes the same call, how would the liability be distributed? Would any liability be imputed to the driver?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by AZPaul3, posted 03-20-2016 8:10 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 03-31-2016 5:31 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 142 (829999)
03-20-2018 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by AZPaul3
03-31-2016 5:31 PM


Re: Sue them all!
I don't see it. If I decide to pass a truck (assuming the pass attempt is legal) and the truck's load comes undone causing damage to me and mine, where is my liability? Please explain.

Missed this a couple of years ago.

Some jurisdictions have a contributory negligence theory of law where the plaintiff's negligence either offsets or in some cases completely negates liability for the plaintiff's own negligence.

So you tried to pass but did so on the right where it was not legal, or you did follow some procedure in the handbook, or perhaps there was some indication that the load was loose that you ignored. Or perhaps if you were a little further back when you started your pass, you might have seen the developing hazard.

Any of those things might be considered contributory negligence.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by AZPaul3, posted 03-31-2016 5:31 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 142 (830200)
03-24-2018 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
03-24-2018 2:04 PM


Re: The Downside of Human Instructors
But research shows that the on average people can only maintain vigilance for a monotonous task for less than half an hour. After the first half hour an autonomous vehicle's safety driver becomes of less and less utility. He is likely allowing situations go by where intervention would have improved the software.

The solution for this seems rather obvious. Put several folks in the car and allow them to switch off as needed. This problem is not of a nature that makes solving the problem impossible; just a little more expensive. If needed, you can enforce the limitation in software by preventing the machine from learning lessons when the supervisor is not at his best.

And so because of the handoff problem, many autonomous vehicle companies are pursuing Level 5 autonomy. I think this is a mistake and can see two possible outcomes in the near term (the next few years):

I think unfortunate rather than mistaken fits better here. I don't see a viable alternative.

In my opinion there will never be any such thing as a car with no steering wheel or pedals, because without them there would be no way to do simple maneuvers, like moving the car in the driveway that is blocking Uncle Fred.

I agree. But if that were the only limitation, then wow, what a fantastic change that could be for all of us! All of that driving time spent in productive activities while still retaining the point to point convenience of operating your own vehicle.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Percy, posted 03-24-2018 2:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 03-24-2018 9:08 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 142 (830316)
03-26-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Percy
03-24-2018 9:08 PM


Re: The Downside of Human Instructors
I can see driver rotation alleviating attention fatigue the first week or two on the job, but might not the sheer passivity and monotony of the exercise for week after week make the effective attention period for each shift shorter and shorter?

Even if that were true, it is not an insurmountable obstacle. But we do allow folks to do complex tasks in shifts for periods of time extending months and years. There probably is a burnout point, but is there any reason to believe it is something we cannot handle with some feasible, but maybe costly, rotation? I would not think so.

To pursuing Level 5? Wouldn't Level 2 be as effective in saving lives?

I don't believe it would be as effective in saving lives. With minor, but meaningful exceptions, computers are already better drivers than are humans. So the issue of having humans have to step in just is not going to go away.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 03-24-2018 9:08 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 142 (830321)
03-26-2018 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Percy
03-26-2018 9:41 PM


Re: The Downside of Human Instructors
The history of car manufacturers is that they didn't focus on safety until government regulation forced them to.

I don't think there is much danger of safety getting overlooked here. (Where here means the process of getting the first approvals for automated cars) I am glad that we agree that the problems are not insurmountable. In this case, though I think that the problems with alertness during the learning process border on being trivial to solve.

All of the levels below level 5, require humans to take over and humans make errors. Every level of automation invites or encourages some level of driver inattention, but only the higher levels provide enough assistance to deal with inattention. I am not against lower levels of automation being placed in cars, but I don't see them as a huge leap from a safety standpoint.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Percy, posted 03-26-2018 9:41 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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