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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1771 of 2887 (831115)
04-12-2018 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1770 by Pollux
04-12-2018 6:56 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Yeah I know, but there's so much other evidence in support of the Flood timing that I have to assume all those ideas of what-would-have-happened-if are missing something. There had to be major heating of the planet but that brought on the ice age which would have toned it down in turn. Only one ice age in my scenario, for which there is clear evidence.
The idea of many comings and goings of continents doesn't fit either, but one does: originally there was only one continent and then it broke up. There is clear evidence for that one only. And its breaking up came right at the end of the building of the geologic column and caused all the deformation to the originally straight flat strata, also the mountain building and so on and so forth. The supposed series of continental collisions and separations over hundreds of millions of years that you are talking about was supposedly going on during the laying down of the strata, which would have demolished the strata to smithereens with all that crashing around, but the actual evidence I see only allows for one continental split at the end of the building of the whole column. All that I can show on photos and diagrams, and I don't see the evidence for all the rest of it you're talking about.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1770 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 6:56 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1780 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 1:55 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 1772 of 2887 (831119)
04-12-2018 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1770 by Pollux
04-12-2018 6:56 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
And once again, we have the evidence while all Faith has is the dogma of her Cult.
A great example that also provides another separate and independent observation is the data developed and cataloged after WWII of the magnetic sea floor observations.
Submarines were a major threat during and even after WWII and so locating subs was a high priority goal. SONAR worked well but had a limited range and since it was an active process also told the target that you were there and searching. A magnetometer though was a passive technology and so could be used without telling the target you were searching and so magnetometer technology advanced rapidly and became increasingly accurate and reliable.
As subs got even more capable, quieter, harder to detect magnetometer technology also got better at detecting anomalies.
Now some facts. When lava cools and solidifies it adopts the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field at the time the rock cools. It then retains that polarity until it is destroyed.
The data from the magnetometer scans of the Atlantic (and later other oceans) showed a distinct pattern of mirrored stripes and regular magnetic reversals on each side of the mid ocean ridge.
The stripes end abruptly at the edges of continents or at deep sea trenches.
The Earth does not seem to be getting bigger.
The issue was to figure out the process, procedure, model, method or mechanism that could explain what is seen.
The model that developed was of magma rising at the mid-ocean ridges and then subducting at the continental edge and deep sea trenches.
The next step was to see if there was other evidence to support that model, preferable multiple and independent lines of inquiry.
And Yes Virginia, there is such evidence.
Three separate and independent observations supported that model.
First is sediment. Above the lava it is non-existent at the mid-ocean ridge and increases in thickness as you move away from the ridge. Since any sedimentation happened over time, the thicker layers of sediment must be older than the thinner layers.
Second is crustal thickness. Again, as you move away from the mid-ocean ridge the crust becomes thicker.
Third is heat flow. It is hottest at the mid-ocean ridge and decreases as you move away from the ridge.
Later additional observations explained that where the stripes ended are places of subduction, the surface going back down into the mantle. This also helped explain earthquakes (yet more evidence) and mountain building (yet more evidence).
So far no one has presented any model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that would allow some flood to create the actual evidence that exists in reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1770 by Pollux, posted 04-12-2018 6:56 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1773 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 9:54 AM jar has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1773 of 2887 (831120)
04-12-2018 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1772 by jar
04-12-2018 9:19 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
What are you trying to prove? I have no problem with the alternating polarities. They just have to fit into the time since the Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1772 by jar, posted 04-12-2018 9:19 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1774 by jar, posted 04-12-2018 11:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1774 of 2887 (831121)
04-12-2018 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1773 by Faith
04-12-2018 9:54 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith writes:
What are you trying to prove? I have no problem with the alternating polarities. They just have to fit into the time since the Flood.
But you can't fit them into that time frame, explain how your imaginary flud could cause them, or in fact anything at all. All you have is the dogma of your cult.
Edited by jar, : too many "your"

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(4)
Message 1775 of 2887 (831128)
04-12-2018 1:04 PM


Faith’s arguments against the order of the fossil record
First there is the assertion that it is an illusion.
This has never been backed up by any reasoning or evidence. In fact the order is an observation based on the techniques of relative dating that work to identify the order of deposition even if Faith’s Flood geology were correct.
Second, there is the semantics argument. This is the assertion that the term order should not be used since Faith assumes that it is the product of pure chance. However, the term does not make any assumptions about the origin of the order, and if anything implies a non-chance origin it is the fact of the order itself.
Third there is the assertion that there are no systematics to the order. This is only partially true. For instance no dinosaur remains were deposited before the Triassic system, and - with the exception of birds - none were deposited after the Cretaceous system. And yet dinosaurs were hugely variable in size and shape and inhabited a diverse array of habitats all over the world (also, to emphasise the unimportance of habitat there were large marine and flying reptiles which are also only found in the Triassic, Jurassic and Cretaceous systems). There is a degree of systematics and it is related to taxonomy (and nothing else), which should really not be the case if the fossils were of animals all living at the same time.
This point also refutes the claim that any order would suit evolution (curiously phrased as the denial of the existence of any order). If the order had no correspondence with taxonomy evolution would never have even got started. There are acceptable variations, but if - for instance - rabbits were only found in the Triassic (with no other changes from the observed order) evolution would have serious problems accounting for them.
So, all in all Faith has done nothing to dent the fact that the order in the fossil record is very strong evidence against her Flood geology, or even to dent it as evidence of evolution.

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 1776 of 2887 (831133)
04-12-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1775 by PaulK
04-12-2018 1:04 PM


Re: Faith’s arguments against the order of the fossil record
First there is the assertion that it is an illusion.
My take is slightly different.
What Faith is implying is that the actual order is exactly what the flood predicts and that anything that appears to be evidence to the contrary is fake news. A true defense of a positive statement of her own position would require a couple of things.
1. Knowing what the actual order is
2. Having an explanation that fits the known order.
Faith can contribute zero to either of those requirements. So she does not attempt a true defense. Instead, she just denies the evidence that shows that the order is not consistent with the flood is real, by declaring that order to be an illusion.
The best way to debate is to examine the positions of creationists who actually are willing to put their position in writing and who take an actual stance on the evidence, and to examine whether their arguments carry weight. Folks who just flat out deny but who put no 'skin in the game' should be ignored beyond the point of exposing them for what they are. The latter list of 'folks' would include Faith.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1777 of 2887 (831134)
04-12-2018 4:43 PM


Fossil Order is not scientific
The "fossil order" in the sense of the timescale interpretation of the observed physical sequence of fossils, is an illusion because it is nothing but subjective imagination that defines it. How the different creatures "look" is all there is. The lower "look" more primitive or less complex or whatever the criteria are these days, the higher "look" more evolved or more advanced etc.
The "evidence" is that the lower you go in the column the less like "modern" creatures the fossils look. That's "evidence" that they are more primitive or more "ancient" or "earlier," but all it most likely really means is that for some reason the lower you go the fewer of those creatures survived so that we would recognizes their descendants today.
You've all bought an illusion. It is all very 19th century. There is no empirical evidence for it. It's like Phrenology in that way, and lots of 19th century "theories." The ToE itself. All mental conjuring. You imagine a genetic relatedness you can't prove, between fossils at different levels but you treat it as fact anyway and aggressively prounounce it scientific though it is anything but.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1791 by PaulK, posted 04-13-2018 7:39 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1778 of 2887 (831135)
04-12-2018 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1777 by Faith
04-12-2018 4:43 PM


Re: Fossil Order is not scientific
quote:
The "fossil order" in the sense of the timescale interpretation of the observed physical sequence of fossils, is an illusion because it is nothing but subjective imagination that defines it.
What is the timescale interpretation ? And what is the basis for your claim that nothing but subjective imagination defines it?
quote:
How the different creatures "look" is all there is. The lower "look" more primitive or less complex or whatever the criteria are these days, the higher "look" more evolved or more advanced etc The lower "look" more primitive or less complex or whatever the criteria are these days, the higher "look" more evolved or more advanced etc. It is all very 19th century.would
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you ? (If you actually learned about the real science you might make sense)
quote:
It's like Phrenology in that way, and lots of 19th century "theories." The ToE itself. All mental conjuring.
Oh dear, just more idiotic Creationist dishonesty.
When you explain exactly what you think you are refuting I’ll explain the truth to you. That’s if you even know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1777 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 4:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1779 of 2887 (831136)
04-13-2018 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1772 by jar
04-12-2018 9:19 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Explaining all these findings as happening during or soon after the Flood needs an acceleration of processes by a factor of 1,000,000 to 1,000,000,000. Picture the tectonic plates churning along tens of miles a day at least. with prodigious amounts of magma pouring out of the mid-ocean ridges, cooling rapidly to take on the current polarity of the madly oscillating magnetic poles. Hotspots are madly building volcanoes before they are taken away by the moving plates, some of them frantically growing coral reefs on their tops before they sink too far.
At the same time nuclear physics is being tampered with to give an appearance of long age from RMD of the magma.
All this is bad enough but at the other end where the plates subduct, they have to push into the crust by the same number of miles per day, get heated, melt to form magma, which then has to fight its way up to produce volcanoes to build areas such as the Aleutians, American west coast volcanoes, the Andes, and more.
It not only requires miraculous changes in physics, it also seems a little unnecessary when all that was wanted was a Flood to drown everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1772 by jar, posted 04-12-2018 9:19 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1782 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 5:56 AM Pollux has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


(1)
Message 1780 of 2887 (831137)
04-13-2018 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1771 by Faith
04-12-2018 8:29 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Your scenario might have only one ice age, but the real world has numerous ones. There are very many lake and sea cores which clearly show multiple cycles of warm and cold flora on land, e.g. cool grassland pollens alternating with temperate forest, and similar changes in sea fauna and changes in markers for temperature.
Multiple oscillations are also shown in ice cores
The idea of a single ice age is untenable, and only put forward by YEC because there is not enough time after the presumed Flood to fit more in. Noah apparently did not notice it when he planted his vineyard.
As I said before, evidence in Africa and South America shows a major Ice Age (End-Permian) BEFORE they split apart. As an aside, this was one of the evidences that led the geologist De Toit to realise Wegener's idea of moving continents had merit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1771 by Faith, posted 04-12-2018 8:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1781 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 5:49 AM Pollux has replied
 Message 1783 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 6:21 AM Pollux has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1781 of 2887 (831139)
04-13-2018 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1780 by Pollux
04-13-2018 1:55 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
[Ice Age (End-Permian)]
I have to ask how on earth you could identify the time something happened by reference to a mere slab of rock? Which is what the "Permian" is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1780 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 1:55 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1782 of 2887 (831140)
04-13-2018 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1779 by Pollux
04-13-2018 1:40 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I can't find the posts but IIRC my calculations had the speed of continental drift starting at ten miles a day (maybe it was twenty, ten on each side of the Atlantic Ridge) and slowing down over the 4500 years to its present fraction of an inch per year. When it started there would have been so much general upheaval from many sources at the same time the great speed would have been just part of the effect.
ABE: Found one: Message 677. I see I was discussing it with you then too. /abe
I traced out the gradual reduction of the speed over the centuries too and the size of the bodies of water at various stages, because the distances would of course have been smaller than at present which is a very interesting thing to contemplate. Columbus would have had a shorter trip in 1492 than he would have today. The Vikings would have had an even shorter trip in their day. Even the Mediterranean Sea would have been narrower at some interesting times in history. I hope I can find all that some time.
Coral reefs like everythibg else no doubt grew much faster in the pre-Flood world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1779 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 1:40 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1784 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 6:56 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1783 of 2887 (831141)
04-13-2018 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1780 by Pollux
04-13-2018 1:55 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
I looked up Alexander du Toit and found that he's identified as an early supporter of Wegener's theory based on comparisons between the continents that split, stratigraphic comparisons for instance, but an ice age isn't mentioned.
Ice cores are no doubt just as misinterpreted as the strata are, so if they are the evidence of many ice ages they need some rethinking.
ABE: Another consideration: The one ice age would have been the result of the great heating of the planet during the Flood and certainly when the continents split and started moving and general volcanism was going on and the magma started rising up at the Atlantic Ridge and so on. I didn't know the ice age extended into Africa and South America. That would be a measure of the great heat generated by the Flood and related events. Anyway, if the cause of the ice sheets was the events mentioned then they probably wouldn't have extended that far south until after the continental split, or possibly at about the same time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1780 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 1:55 AM Pollux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1789 by Pollux, posted 04-13-2018 7:31 AM Faith has replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 1784 of 2887 (831142)
04-13-2018 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1782 by Faith
04-13-2018 5:56 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
Faith, just think. Given the number of earthquakes we have with a few inches per year of plate movement, don't you think that even one mile per year might actually be noticed? There is no indication in history of quakes being significantly more common than currently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1782 by Faith, posted 04-13-2018 5:56 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1785 of 2887 (831143)
04-13-2018 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1784 by Pollux
04-13-2018 6:56 AM


Re: The Imaginary Fossil Order is a false interpretation
There would have been massive earthquakes associated with the splitting of the sontinents, that whole tectonic upheaval that inaugurated mountain building, twisted strata in many places, was associated with the receding of the Flood waters and the cutting of the Grand Canyon and washing away of huge amounts of sediment in that area and so on and so forth. But only Noah and family were alive at that time and they were parked in the Middle East which might have been the least affected area on the planet. They no doubt felt the shakings too however. But all that upheaval would have settled down over the next century or so, and by the time the population had grown enough to start spreading out across the world no doubt much quieter.

This message is a reply to:
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