Message 2866 of 2887 (832735) 05-09-2018 9:04 AM

Reply to: Message 2864 by Faith 05-09-2018 9:03 AM

Nope. Billions of tons of pressure, standard and known chemical reactions.

How about the previous discussion of exactly that? What's your response?

Except ours is derived from examining all the evidence and testing our hypotheses.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Message 2867 of 2887 (832736) 05-09-2018 9:12 AM

Reply to: Message 2865 by edge 05-09-2018 9:03 AM

And I don't think you've noticed how much of your own methodology is really nothing more than story telling.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 2868 of 2887 (832737) 05-09-2018 9:17 AM

Reply to: Message 2866 by JonF 05-09-2018 9:04 AM

You say you've examined all the evidence but what evidence?

You say you've tested your hypothesis? How?

Message 2869 of 2887 (832738) 05-09-2018 9:18 AM

Reply to: Message 2865 by edge 05-09-2018 9:03 AM

This is certainly part of the problem, she has no qualifications in anything and no experience at all in any form of science work. I think she thinks that scientists do what she does; make up ad hoc solutions to problems then move onto the next one.

She has literally no idea how many years of effort it would take to construct an objective, evidence based research paper to attempt to validate just one of her claims. I think she�d be quite shocked by the rigor involved - particularly if the idea is in anyway controversial.

Message 2870 of 2887 (832739) 05-09-2018 9:23 AM

Reply to: Message 2869 by Tangle 05-09-2018 9:18 AM

Personal stuff like that is against the rules but all that has just been tossed to the wind lately.

It's also a fallacy called ad hominem argument, dealing with the subject by attacking the person.

I used to like to read about the history and philosophy of science. Also books about evolution. Loved Stephen Jay Gould. I used to respect science. I still respect REAL science, but the historical sciences, evolution, historical geology, really are a lot of fairy tales.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Message 2872 of 2887 (832741) 05-09-2018 10:28 AM

Reply to: Message 2870 by Faith 05-09-2018 9:23 AM

I'm not attacking you, I'm attempting to explain why you are incapable of objective analysis.

Reading books and so on, is fine but it gives you no idea of the work underpinning the words therein. You also don't understand what is written, which is why you say the absurd things you say. Please note that I'm not saying that you disagree with what's written - of course you do - but you actually don't know or understand the concepts you're criticising.

And, of course, you have absolutely no formal training at any level in the things you're discussing so you can't possibly have a clue about them.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Message 2873 of 2887 (832743) 05-09-2018 10:45 AM

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Message 2874 of 2887 (832750) 05-09-2018 11:48 AM

We WIN!

Message 2877 of 2887 (832762) 05-09-2018 6:47 PM

Reply to: Message 2829 by Faith 05-07-2018 12:47 PM

Sorry that happened, but it's just as well that the long version was lost. I say that because you're operating under a misimpression - you think geology takes a position that it does not. This misunderstanding has been explained several times in this thread, which is why I said at the top that I hope you read this one, because then the discussion can finally move past this.

Incredulity is a perfectly legitimate emotion, but it is not an argument. "I can't believe I have to explain this yet again," is a legitimate expression of incredulity (and frustration and exasperation), but if I left it at that then you would not understand why I was incredulous, would you.

And so it must be explained. Again. But if you read and understand this then the discussion might move onward instead of repeatedly rehashing this issue. We don't insist you believe this is what actually happened, but it would represent significant progress if you understood that this is what geology actually thinks happened, instead of repeatedly arguing against things geology does not believe.

In Message 2760 you made this assertion:

But this is, of course, untrue. Beneath the sea the abyssal plains are extremely flat and of great extent. On land even your own state has vast flat stretches, as shown in this image of Ash Meadows:

This image was offered because it is very flat, not because it's likely to be preserved as strata, but it could be. It depends upon what happens geologically in the future. If the region experiences no uplift then the mountains and the prairie will gradually be eroded lower and lower and disappear. A thousand or two feet of strata beneath the prairie could be eroded away over time.

But maybe instead a nearby region will experience uplift, increasing deposition onto this plain and gradually burying it more and more deeply in sediment, eventually to be lithified. Uplift will at some point cease, then erosion will dominate again and the now lithified prairie will one day be exposed. Perhaps a river will deeply incise parts of the region and expose the lithified prairie as a stratum in its walls.

You're connecting two different things that no one has ever suggested should be connected. In response to your assertions that none of the Earth's surface is as flat and straight as strata we have repeatedly pointed out that large portions of the Earth's surface are extremely flat, like Ash Meadows, large parts of Kansas and the abyssal plains. But then you're making a false connection between this fact and your mistaken notion that geology believes the strata of the Grand Canyon region formed by deposition atop flat landscapes like these. No one is suggesting or has ever suggested that. We have said time and again that the strata of the Grand Canyon are the result of Walther's Law, about which I still see no indication that you understand.

Walther's Law produces alternating layers of sandstone, shale and limestone. Because that is what we see in the Grand Canyon region naturally we believe Walther's Law was responsible. What we don't see is paleosols, which is what we would see had ancient prairies become buried and lithified.

The strata above the Kaibab that can be seen west of the Grand Canyon, for instance in the Bryce Canyon area, have more varied histories. Some formed through Walther's Law, some formed in lake-filled regions that were also affected by nearby orogeny, some formed other ways.

Sure they could. One obvious way is deposition in a terrestrial environment followed by uplift resulting in erosion followed by subsidence into a marine environment.

This again reflects you mistakenly combining our corrections of your assertions that nothing as flat and straight as strata exist on the Earth's surface with your misimpression that we think the strata of the Grand Canyon region resulted from deposition atop flat terrestrial regions of the Earth. Again, all the evidence suggests that the strata in the Grand Canyon region resulted from Walther's Law.

Moving on to your Message 2833:

Quoting you from your Message 2760:

A paleosol is soil that has become sedimentary rock, so you just said that paleosols can't happen.

You don't quote anything I say, and this doesn't look like a response to anything I said.

I never mentioned the Geologic Timescale. What is it you think I said that you're attempting to rebut here?

Of course, but can you explain why?

The rest of this message contains some really neat images and useful descriptions but nothing that requires rebuttal.

--Percy

Message 2878 of 2887 (832763) 05-09-2018 7:36 PM

Reply to: Message 2836 by Faith 05-07-2018 10:54 PM

You quote nothing I said, I can only guess you're responding to where I said that according to you, around mid April species and kind were the same thing, but now in early May they're not. You didn't switch to using kind - you changed it from being defined as a species to having no definition at all.

A genome is all the genes and chromosomes of a species. Unless kind is synonymous with species, a kind cannot have a genome.

These words already have definitions - you cannot change them. The gray wolf is a species, dogs are a subspecies of the gray wolf.

Without a definition you've got an unintelligible proposition.

Having a different definition of kind for different creatures just makes more clear that you're making things up as you go along.

This is so vague as to be useless. Dogs and cats have the same basic shape.

If all that matters to you is how your ideas seem to you, why are you here?

So now you're changing your criteria from "same basic shape" to "same skeleton"?

And now you're changing your criteria from "same skeleton" to "similar skeletons"?

And now you're changing your criteria from "similar skeletons" to lobe numbers?

Your criteria for determining kind lack generality and consistency. So are all fish the same kind? Are all insects the same kind? Are all snakes the same kind?

You changed your criteria three times in this post alone.

--Percy

Message 2879 of 2887 (832769) 05-10-2018 2:20 AM

All participants get one last general reply message (that mean you too Percy, even if the software will permit you more).

Adminnemooseus

Message 2880 of 2887 (832782) 05-10-2018 10:09 AM

He claims I don't understand the standard geological point of view, that I am "repeatedly arguing against things geology does not believe," but as I read through his post that doesn't really seem true.

So this isn't a case of my not understanding what Geology says, it's just me arguing with Geology as usual, which DOES say the following:

As I've looked at images of the abyssal plains I don't see the flatness of the strata represented there, but I did have the SURFACE OF THE EARTH in mind, not the sea floor, and I strenuously disagree that Ash Meadows is any kind of example of the flatness I keep talking about. It's just another of those landscapes Percy keeps putting up that bear no resemblance to the flatness of the strata and as usual I just cannot fathom why he. or Geology in general, thinks they do.

In any case, again, I'm not arguing with a straw man here, I'm arguing with what Geology apparently does really believe, if Percy is right about that anyway.

Ash Meadows:

"Flat" but far far far from the flatness of the strata.

And if it was made of cheddar cheese you could slice it with a knife and make it as flat of the strata and save all that time.

Still true.

The only two things it looks to me like I'm connecting are the flatness and the extent of the strata, meaning the enormous areas of geography so many of them cover, which was the main point of my post on the formations in my Message 2833, all of which cover parts of many states in the western US. None of the photos Percy has shown cover more than a hundredth of that area.

But Percy sees a different connection I'm making:

And I have repeatedly answered that those examples are nowhere near the flatness of the strata and I still think the comparison indefensible. But again let me point out that this is an example where I DO get what Geology is saying, if Percy is right anyway, not where I don't get it, and I'm disagreeing with it.

Well, I think this may be wrong, as I recall a thread from years ago started by jar to discuss how each of the layers in the Grand Canyon was formed and Walther's Law was not part of any of the descriptions, it was all the usual "depositional environments" that I also object to as nothing but unprovable imagination. Walther's law didn't even come up at EvC until much more recently. However, I do think it does explain the Grand Canyon and maybe others here do too at this point.

However, I don't have the Grand Canyon particularly in mind when I'm talking about the flatness of the strata, but all the strata I've seen everywhere and I don't get why you think I'm only talking about the GC.

Here's one from West Virginia:

Very straight and flat, though perhaps not as tight contacts as some in the Grand Canyon.

And here's one from Kansas:

Pretty straight and flat to my eye, and a LOT flatter than any of those landscapes in the photos.

Then you go on to object to my connecting all this to the Geo Time Scale though you haven't brought it up yourself. It's all part of the same argument I've been making all along but I'm not up to pursuing it at the moment so I'll end this here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.