Catholics are making it up.

I'm a bit confused.

On the one hand, you continually rhetorically ask your opponents whether they have ever "read" the Bible....which shows a smugness concerning your basic arguments....which you use the Bible to support. Yet on the other hand, you tell us that " all of the various bibles contain false statements, fiction and contradictions.". Labeling much of the New Testament as written by redactors and "salesmen", you conveniently set any argument up for denial based on those assertions.

We have heard your pet theories and stories time and time again...about how God lies...the serpant tells the truth...etc ad nauseum. My point is that your belief and explanation of what the Bible means and its relevance to humanity today is itself a made up story.

We can all agree that humans wrote it. What gets me is why some humans "make stuff up" while other humans "explain in context"...,.from a book that is nothing more than writings from earlier humans.

Im proud of Faith for having patience in these discussions. Im sure she is learning something through these arguments, but I'm not as convinced that you are. You are set in your ways and in your beliefs, and if you cant see the Bible talking to you in any way other than how you feel makes logical sense, why criticize others for doing the same thing?

These types of arguments frustrate me. They are always the same...Im starting t react the same way Faith does....chalk that up to a psychology study

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

ringo writes: I don't refuse to believe in Bigfoot or unicorns or leprechauns either.

You have never had a reason to believe in them unless and until you believe you have sensed them. You can't know what I have sensed. Objectively I cant prove or show you anything, but belief is strongly subjective. Not "wrong". Evidence can't nail down everything.

Yes, I cannot deny that. Belief is partially a cultural meme, but it also stems in some cases from individual experience. The Sasquatch hunter must surely be aware that he has not caught any yet. Why he would want to keep hunting for something never seen is puzzling. Perhaps he has a Sasquatch Hunters support group.

Tangle writes: Sure, all religions and their books and rituals are made up. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of the Catholic version.

Its turtles all the way down....to Jesus. Human nature makes stuff up. Ever read the National Enquirer?

Trump brought up the term fake news and many of his followers believe it. And to be fair, you have a point in that we (humans) tend to defend the religion of our parents and culture. I would argue, however, that the origin of most major belief systems was not willfully made up. Whether or not the Creator of all seen and unseen is made up or not can not be proven one way or another. I do think that you can willfully imagine whether or not you want Him to be real, however.

What does a Zen Deist see?

jar claims that Christians will be judged by what they do. Calling out the majority of professing Christians as being ignorant and killing the faith of weaker believers will likely require an explanation before God some day. And protesting that he does many little "good thing" like taking out the neighbors trash and putting shopping carts back in the corral will not carry enough weight to offset the damage he does through his pen. I am not God and cannot imagine what jars encounter with the Risen Christ will be like but i know that God respects the humble and resists the proud. All of jars fancy book learnin, critical thinking, and arrogant public commentary against other believers will likely be weighed against whatever good the gun toting Texan has done. As Christians we need to pray for him rather than belittle him...though it is tempting.

And the fact remains that what you posted from Romans is a simply assertion with no evidence to support it. It is just the opinion of the author of Romans and contradicted by what is actually written in Genesis.

So why isnt the scripture from Genesis not simply an opinion also? Why do you always pick on her? Do you feel it is your call?

jar writes: It's ALL made up Phat. All just the product of human imagination.

Quite an assertion! This particular topic is titled "Catholics are making it up.". So you mean to say that all of the scholars who have diligently (not whimsically and fancifully) studied the statements from many of the ancient Saints, Apostles, Popes, and Clergy and who have written sometimes brilliant observations on philosophies learned, improved, and passed down, some from the very utterings of an Apostle of Christ or Christ Himself...are wrong??!! And little old jar from Texas with a bit of pomp and brevity and armed with his trusty critically thinking mind is right and can dismiss the value of all of these teachers?

*Shakes head*

No. No, I don't believe you. Your alternative explanations are as bankrupt as what you claim the theological arguments contain. To begin with, you have to support the assertion that most of them are willfully ignorant. Next, you have to show indications that they are liars. Finally, you have to show me why the churches are making stuff up. Surely there are at least a minority of true believers in those churches who would blow the whistle and tell the others to stop.

Now. Granted, a hot iron has recently seared my conscience. As I have allowed myself to rant about the demise of the US Middle Class(mainly myself) and the unfairness of it all, I began to get in touch with my inner emotions and feelings. Oh yes, I was "saved" at one point. Scripture tells me I have not lost this gift, but my behavior suggests otherwise. I am finding selfish, indifferent, greedy, and ungodly feelings within my soul. Part of it is because of my recent blindness in one eye, plus overall aging. I feel that life has been unfair, and I am considering the implications of there being no rescuing God. It scares and infuriates me. I would just as well nuke the planet, because if I don't get blessed, why should anyone?

These feelings are not of God. He tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves and to consider others better than ourselves. The list goes on. One thing I do know for sure. Salvation is a gift---we cannot earn it. And if God chose to give it to those who never worked for it, this would NOT be a copout. It would be a miracle.

jar writes: I say they are made up. Each and every utterance or writing is the product of a human mind.

How do we know or even have evidence disproving the idea that much of religious thought is formed through a communion of human minds with a Divinity? How do we know that humanity is partially designed to be a social experiment/incubation of the human species for other tasks later on? Maybe we have to graduate kindergarten before we can participate in universal governance. My point is that we can argue that it's all solely a product of the human mind(collectively) but at the same time have a belief in a greater purpose. And we have subjective testimony on just such a possibility. Why is communion with GOD a silly fantasy? Can it not be a possibility? GOD is certainly not by definition so limited.

Tangle, referring to the Catholic Church writes: Why should anyone believe anything they say?

By all means question, but we cannot very well build a society using our best effort if we only trust data and physical evidence and forever doubt human motive.

jar writes: Jim Jones was in communion with God. So was Muhammad. So was Hitler and Hirohito was not just in communion but actually was Divine.

All this shows me is suggested validation of a spiritual battle. There is One Holy Spirit(GOD, Creator Of All Seen & Unseen) and then One human link--Jesus Christ. You can trot out all of the other cultural gods and goddesses that you like. I maintain that they are counterfeits, just as the "spirit" in Jim Jones was counterfeit.

Of course, I can't prove it objectively, but I might add that the same "counterfeit" spirits affect you and I and everyone else at times, though not to the degree as Hirohito or Hitler. My conclusion is that communion with Jesus is possible though certainly not an easy road. The very things I rant about and fight against and want to hold on to would need to be let go of. hence, when ringo accuses me of not following the message, he has a point.

The evidence shows me that it is not all made up.

You and I have gone over the evidence many times but you simply deny the evidence exists. Look at what was actually written in the Bible stories about Saul's conversion or about the Great Commission; look at the varying and often incompatible and mutually exclusive description of God in the stories.

And the reason that I reject your supposed evidence is that it concludes that GOD, if GOD exists, is not found in the Bible and is in fact a product of human imagination. Not acceptable. And I still don't see how you believe anything with teeth. All you believe in is logic, reason, and evidence.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

If we were to accept your "evidence" like you did, we would become believers like you are. Humanist do-gooders who know nothing about God for sure, believe in themselves rather than in Christ's communion and power, and prone to throwing religion away. Maybe it works for you and you can be at peace with yourself, but as I said before, you believe in logic, reason, and evidence and not in a living Christ. You will again ask me what that even means, which proves you don't understand or accept it. I could ask 500 random people in most churches and they would know what I was talking about.

jar writes: We ask for evidence that some communion does or even could exist between a human mind and some divinity. Then, based on the evidence we reach a conclusion.

I feel as if such communion can exist. What would stop it?

It could exist, even if we made up the interaction, God could still be listening.

jar writes: Now please explain how you can know your communion is any different than what Jim Jones experienced or as testable as the communion between seventy-eight million Japanese citizens and their deity?

It is different because One God is real and the others are not. (On Gods end) But on the human end, nothing is any different. We know (or suspect) that Jim Jones had mental issues, so that explains some of it. Can we honestly claim that 78 million Japanese had mental issues? And finally...are we ready to indict the CCoI for having a giant collective mental fantasy regarding God? This may well satisfy the evidence on the human end, but the jury is still out on whether such communion can even exist or what it means to us and for us.

Look, I know you make a valid argument as to why humans make God up. It seems clear that we often imagine God to be as we want him to be. But one must stand on their belief if their belief is to have any impact or meaning in their life. Perhaps the question is this:

Should we "throw away" God as *we* understand Him? If so, how could we call ourselves believers?

Japan was collectively asked to "throw away" the idea that Hirohito was divine.
Japans Emperor: A Mortal Man

quote:

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He asked his people to reject the ''false conception that the Emperor is divine and that the Japanese people are superior to other races.'' He then said to his wife: ''Do you see any difference? Do I look more human to you now?''

Hirohito's transition from someone ''sacred and inviolable'' to a revered figurehead under a revised Constitution seemed a happy one. The Emperor attended to ceremonial duties, traveled widely and pursued his lifelong interest in marine biology. No longer a figure of awe, he had won new freedom as a symbol of continuity in a nation of bewildering change.

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I can imagine what would happen if Jesus were to appear and tell the Nationalist Christians that He too was just a man and that they too should reject him as divine and reject the idea that they were any better than anybody else.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.