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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 397 of 506 (870687)
01-23-2020 4:36 PM


All religions are of human origin.
I guess I’m late to the discussion but here are my thoughts on it all. God has done what He has done and is going to do what He is going to do. All religions are human attempts at trying to figure out both of those issues.
As this thread is about Catholicism I’ll just deal with Christianity. There are considerable differences in the beliefs of the various Christian factions. Evidence of those differences is evident when you listen to what Faith has to say about the Roman Church.
Essentially Christianity is humanly thought out based on some relatively simple principles. Firstly is the belief that God the Father is responsible for the fact that life as we know it exists. Secondly is the belief that the human figure of Jesus perfectly embodied the (Word) or the nature of God, and that we can have confidence in that belief because God resurrected Jesus. (Obviously if you aren’t Christian all of that can be rejected. It is a belief.)
How we go about understanding the Biblical message is an open question. There is the belief that the Bible is essentially dictated by God and the only human input is around how the message is worded. Others like myself see the Bible as being a library of books, and that each book should be understood on its own merits, with the realization that all of them are of human construction, which does not mean that they are incorrect in what they have written. There are huge contradictions in the Bible so we are left as humans to sort things out.
As I have said before, I contend that there has been a progressive understanding amongst humans and our understanding evolves, and that continues to this day and will in the future as well.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2020 5:54 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 399 of 506 (870691)
01-23-2020 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Tangle
01-23-2020 5:54 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
Tangle writes:

You can contend all you like but you have absolutely no reason to contend it.

You know no more about your god than the iron age men that first invented him. All that is 'known' about your god is written in those books that you hold so dear. Everything since is invention on top of that original invention.

Those books are evidence, as is the fact that the first followers of Jesus clearly believed that Jesus had been resurrected. I am not saying that the evidence is conclusive. We have come to different conclusions about whether or not the resurrection was an historical event.

If the resurrection is historical then we can know more than the iron age men.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2020 5:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Phat, posted 01-23-2020 7:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 404 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2020 3:28 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 407 of 506 (870727)
01-24-2020 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
01-23-2020 7:39 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
GDR writes:

Those books are evidence, as is the fact that the first followers of Jesus clearly believed that Jesus had been resurrected. I am not saying that the evidence is conclusive. We have come to different conclusions about whether or not the resurrection was a historical event.

Thugpreacha writes:

I would argue that the only evidence we actually have is the behavior of humans in response to these writings. Atheists may well argue that they too can do civic duties with no religion needed.

Our interaction with fellow believers carries more weight because of our shared belief, but this does not prevent us from interacting with any group of people doing Christ's work---either knowingly or unknowingly. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm not really clear on what you mean. As Christians we make certain claims, and how we live our lives can add credibility to those claims. But I'm not sure I would call it evidence of the claims that God exists, that He is perfectly good and loving and that He resurrected Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Phat, posted 01-23-2020 7:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 408 of 506 (870730)
01-24-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Tangle
01-24-2020 3:28 AM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
Tangle writes:

They are evidence that some unknown people wrote some stories and that some politicians several centuries later chose some of them and redacted others to form a book and create a useful power structure. That's all.

They are compilations of material, oral and presumably written, of something that happened that no one had expected. Without the resurrection Jesus would have simply been another failed messiah and wouldn't even have been a footnote in history. However, unlike all the more notable messianic figures that led short lived revolts against the Romans the Jesus movement continues to this day.

Tangle writes:

According to the stories they also believed that it was the beginning of the end of times. That the second coming was imminent. It wasn't. They were superstitious primitive people that believed all sorts of nonsense.

Firstly, that is primarily based on a misreading of what is in the Gospels. Jesus was political and preached an anti-revolutionary message and warned the Jewish nation of what the results would be if they went through with violent revolution. This was born out in fact by the war in 66-70 AD.

Another thing is that the Biblical message is not about the end of the world but about it's renewal. The idea of the world ending was that a lot of Greek philosophy, particularly Platonism crept into Christian thinking.

Certainly, there was belief as there has always been that Christ's return was imminent. We saw that not very long ago in one of Faith's threads. People have always wanted to have special knowledge of the future.

Tangle writes:

However you asserted more than that, you were claiming some sort of progressive revelation -

I asserted that there has been a progressive understanding. In the Biblical era we can see how in the most ancient of stories God is mostly understood to be vindictive, unforgiving and even genocidal. (That is not completely true though.) Over time the idea of a loving merciful god crept into their thinking such as in the suffering servant in Isaiah, or it can even be seen in my signature. The Biblical era climaxes in the accounts of Jesus who embodied and preached the true nature of God as loving, merciful, forgiving and just.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2020 3:28 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2020 12:51 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 417 of 506 (870840)
01-25-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Tangle
01-24-2020 12:51 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
Tangle writes:

They're a collection of anonymous folk tales.

Which doesn't mean they aren't at least reasonably accurate.

Tangle writes:

The only difference between these and all the rest is that a powerful emperor adopted them and used them to further his political ambitions.

He adopted the religion because it had already been adopted by so many. Also unfortunately, it caused Christianity to become a route to political power which to a noticeable degree shifted the faith away from it's message of love of neighbour and even enemy. It also was the start of bringing in a lot of Greek philosophy and was the start of separating Jesus from His Jewishness.

Tangle writes:

There is extremely scant evidence that Jesus actually exists; there is absolutely no evidence of a resurrection.

There is considerable evidence even if it isn't conclusive, which we have gone over before. The compilers of the Gospels and the writers of the rest of the NT believed it and none of the early followers would have had any motivation to continue the movement after the crucifixion without the resurrection. Without the resurrection Jesus would never have been remembered . He would simply have been another failed messiah, and one that hadn't even been able to have any revolutionary success.

Tangle writes:

Nope, it's a direct reading of what's written. Your hero CS Lewis describes it as the 'most embarrassing verse in the bible'. Of course you bend over backwards to make it say something that it doesn't but it's clear what it means and it's clear that those in the story thought that the second coming was imminent.

Lewis was a great Christian philosopher. He took pains to point out that he wasn't a theologian. Modern theologians such as N T (Tom) Wright have realized much of what Jesus was talking about was His anti-revolutionary message.

Tangle writes:

That is what the words say, so that is what they mean.

That doesn't mean they got it right.

Tangle writes:

Well that's because the old testament was written by a bunch of people who believed all that primitive vengeful stuff because that was how their lives where. And the new testament was written by different bunch of people that didn't like the story of that god so invented a story of a nicer god. All societies make gods to whatever model their culture requires at that time. You can see it everywhere and everywhen.

This 'progressive' understanding is new; even though the nicer NT has been around for 2,000 years, the idea of a vengeful, retributive god full of fire and brimstone existed until a couple of generations ago. Your nice liberal views would have got you burnt as a heretic in the middle ages.

I agree. Thankfully we have a progressive understanding of the nature of God. My views as I have said before aren't necessarily Liberal. There are pretty much mainstream Anglicanism.

Tangle writes:

But in any case, the only 'data' you have - though it's not data at all - is what's written in that book; there can be no 'progressive understanding' based on actual knowledge of god since that work.

Nonsense. WE have 2000 years of Christian scholarship that has continued to shed light on the subject.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Tangle, posted 01-24-2020 12:51 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Tangle, posted 01-25-2020 1:02 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 425 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-24-2020 4:58 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 426 of 506 (878017)
06-24-2020 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by AnswersInGenitals
06-24-2020 4:58 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
AIG writes:

It wasn't the resurrection that got Jesus remembered and attracted followers to Christianity. It was the STORY of the resurrection! Any religion that wanted members had to have some kind of resurrection story of a hero or god that suffered an horrendous death but came back to life even more powerful: Osiris in Egypt, Innana (Ishtar) in Sumer, Eostre of the Anglo-Saxons (whose name gave rise to the Easter celebration of Autumnal rebirth), and, of course, Harold. Painful death and glorious resurrection is just one of the boxes Paul had to tick off for his religion to gain a foothold.


However those are all mythological gods, (I have no idea who Harold is), of the various cultures whose rebirth was not witnessed by anyone, nor was it claimed that anyone had witnessed the event.

In the case of Jesus we have the accounts of eyewitnesses to an actual physical event, around which they reformed their worldview.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-24-2020 4:58 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 3:35 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 431 of 506 (878062)
06-25-2020 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Tangle
06-25-2020 3:35 AM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
Tangle writes:

No you don't. You have the accounts of anonymous authors, copying from each other, written decades after the alleged event about things that they themselves did not witness.


Matthew is the least conclusive but was probably written by Matthew the tax collector.
Mark was written by a disciple of Peter most likely John Mark.
Luke was written by a physician who traveled with Paul including spending time in Jerusalem with the Apostles
John was written by a disciple of Jesus either John son of Zebedee but more likely John the Elder as written about by Papias.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 3:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by PaulK, posted 06-25-2020 12:45 PM GDR has responded
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 06-25-2020 1:51 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 435 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-25-2020 3:33 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 434 of 506 (878075)
06-25-2020 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by PaulK
06-25-2020 12:45 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
I'll answer this in the thread "Authorship of the Gospels"

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by PaulK, posted 06-25-2020 12:45 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 436 of 506 (878132)
06-25-2020 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by AnswersInGenitals
06-25-2020 3:33 PM


Re: All religions are of human origin.
AIG writes:

To understand the viewpoints of the writers of the gospels you can examine their modern day counterparts. I’m quite sure that DJ Trump does not consider himself to be a god, but he is certainly sure that he has god-like wisdom, being smarter than any general, any economist, any epidemiologist, any __________________, and now to have god-like powers over people’s lives. And now look at his chroniclers. These would be his various press secretaries: Sean Spicer, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and Kayleigh McEneny. If you believe the writers of the gospels to be unbiased and accurate, then you believe Spicer, Sanders, McEneny to be unbiased and accurate.

Of course the writers had biases as does everyone who writes accounts such as these. It does not mean that they don't have integrity in what they write. I have gone over this in other threads but it is clear that the writers believed what it was that they recorded. The accounts are not what anyone had expected or wanted for that matter. A messiah was supposed to drive out the Romans, but here is someone saying that the way to deal with the Romans is to love in order to change their hearts. Not a popular message.

On top of that it is hardly complimentary when it comes to the apostles. It took the resurrection to happen before they got the message, and even that took a while. If they were going to make it up they would have had Jesus shining like a star or something similar.

They claim as did others that these accounts were accurate while there were still eyewitnesses.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-25-2020 3:33 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2020 12:42 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
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