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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 37 of 506 (768198)
09-09-2015 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
09-09-2015 5:06 AM


Faith writes:

Here we go again. Jesus Christ FULFILLED the Old Testament laws of Israel. Israel was a nation, Christians are not a nation, we are scattered among nations. We do not put adulterers to death for both these reasons. TRY to get it. Good grief this gets tedious.

So you think the Biblical admonitions to kill your bad kids, to beat your slaves just right, etc., were instructions to the nation of Israel, not individuals?

"Both these reasons..." Christ fulfilled the old law, and adulterers don't have to be stoned. I assume he didn't liquidate the Ten Commandments, and clearly you don't think that the instruction to see other people as abominations has been lifted. And the eye-for-an-eye death penalty remains imperative, despite the deaths of innocents: somehow the recipients of human justice were grandfathered out of God's new law of mercy and forgiveness...unless she's a county clerk in Kentucky

It's enough to confuse an ex-Baptist farm boy, for sure.

As you peruse Leviticus et al., how do you choose?


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 5:06 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 10:27 AM Omnivorous has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 45 of 506 (768211)
09-09-2015 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-09-2015 10:27 AM


Faith writes:

So you think the Biblical admonitions to kill your bad kids, to beat your slaves just right, etc., were instructions to the nation of Israel, not individuals?

Yes.

I've read those passages, and they seem clearly addressed to parents and slaveowners, not a national authority. But I suppose there may have been special authorizing warrants from the state of Israel that are lost to history.

How does eye for eye cause deaths?

"Eye for eye" is the philosophy of our penal system: that's why we kill some prisoners, including some innocent ones. That's why I, and many other opponents of the death penalty, refer to folks like you as Old Testament Christians. You love your Jesus, but you love your vengeance more.

But isn't it irrelevant whether "eye for eye" causes deaths? Many OT injunctions from God caused deaths. Wasn't the eye-for-eye injunction fulfilled by Christ and replaced with his loving mercy?

Where are people described as abominations?

Okay, you got me there: the act of homosexuality is described as an abomination, not the homosexuals. That's why Christians speak so lovingly of them.

Again, Ms. Davis, since her 2011 conversion, believes holy matrimony cannot be dissolved. Her fourth marriage, in 2008, was before that, so I guess there's some paper cover there. But she didn''t repent of her sinful mockery of marriage and leave that sin behind, and she knowingly issued marriage licenses to divorced people, apparently without any pangs to her religious conscience.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.

Edited by Omnivorous, : after-->before: sorry for confusion


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 10:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 09-09-2015 11:50 AM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 65 of 506 (768254)
09-10-2015 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by MrHambre
09-10-2015 6:00 AM


Re: Blessed are the Magnanimous
MrHambre writes:

The doctrine of original sin got shitcanned decades ago.

I'm following your exchange with Tangle with considerable interest. I try to stay out of interesting one-on-one exchanges (with only partial success, as you can see), but I'm curious about your statement above.

I looked at summaries of contemporary Catholic doctrine and catechism, and while it certainly differs from the Protestant take on original sin, the notion of a fallen human state which gives supernatural evil greater power over humans still seems clear enough.

But I don't generally follow developments in religious doctrine. Was there some explicit doctrinal reinterpretation decades ago?


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by MrHambre, posted 09-10-2015 6:00 AM MrHambre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by MrHambre, posted 09-10-2015 9:48 AM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 78 of 506 (768286)
09-10-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ringo
09-10-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Original Sin
ringo writes:

Faith writes:

A great deal of doctrine is inferred....


That's pretty much the definition of "made up".

Early on, I inferred that "original sin" must be a challenge. I did my best.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 09-10-2015 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-10-2015 1:03 PM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 159 of 506 (768794)
09-14-2015 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
09-14-2015 4:17 AM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
Faith writes:

All I'm going to say is that there would not have been universities or universal education if it hadn't been for Christianity. All the great universities of Europe for instance, and Harvard was founded to train Christian pastors, and most of the other great universities of America were founded for Christian education as well. The education of children was begun in America to teach them to read so that they could read the Bible.

If we want to thank anyone for founding early Western universities, we'd have to thank the popes--according to you, Faith, no true Christians at all. Instead, the roots of universal education reach to the Enlightenment, particularly its American inheritors.

Those early European universities weren't founded to train pastors in the common, Protestant sense of the word, but priests, monastic scholars, etc. Without the infusion of early science and math from the Middle East, they would have had little to teach except the Bible and Aristotle, and even so, in the Medieval period, were chained to doctrine and contributed little beyond such empty doctrinal exercises as scholastic philosophy.

So the creation of a tradition of knowledge and evidence-based learning in universities largely hinged on the ancient pagan Greeks and more recent Muslim contributions. The history of scholarly glory for western universities began with and paralleled their growing independence from religious authority.

Christianity was involved in nearly every "advance" in European history because the Catholic Church held so much secular power; Christian doctrine and persecution of heretics considerably retarded real scholarly progress for centuries.

Whether on balance learning in the West was more hurt or hindered by Christianity is an open question, but I lean towards the hurt. Even when Christians appeared to promote learning, they were anxious to keep it in shackles.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 4:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 7:03 AM Omnivorous has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 162 of 506 (768797)
09-14-2015 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
09-14-2015 7:03 AM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
Faith writes:

Put it another way: there would have been no universities IN THE WEST without Christianity.

Or perhaps we'd have had them sooner and better--we can't re-run history to see.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 7:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 7:09 AM Omnivorous has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 177 of 506 (768828)
09-14-2015 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
09-14-2015 7:09 AM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
Faith writes:

Where would it have come from? Who would have filled the vacuum of the Roman Empire?* It happened to be the papacy. The RCC is the heir of pagan Rome. Which barbarian tribe would you nominate for the source of a better education? Would you have been happier if Islam had won its war to conquer the west?

Goodness. We were talking about the founding of universities in the West and whether Christianity was a help or a hindrance to that end. That doesn't make me a chearleader for Islamic empire--I like what we've got.

Anyway, if Islam had won the West, my specific hodge-podge pedigree of Welsh, German, Sicilian and a soupçon of native American would probably never have quickened. So no Omni in that fight...

Centers of learning rise in every civilization, and existed in China and India, for example, long before there was a Christian church in Europe. The ranking of the "first university" is a bit of artifice, really, because it hinges definitionally on things like set courses of study and degrees/diplomas, excluding earlier courts, great monasteries and libraries (east and west), and even master/apprentice based academies.

The human mind yearns to grow in understanding. We can see that when a civilization reaches the necessary size, wealth and complexity, centers of learning emerge. Nowhere else in the world was Christianity required for the creation of centers of learning; the RCC retarded progress for centuries in the name of doctrine. On the other hand, it is a fair question to ask what other imperial center would have commanded the size, wealth and complexity to build universities; but it is also fair to imagine how different the centuries could have been had the church welcomed the early scientists.

So, like I said, I dunno: we can't run history back and try a pagan or Islamic modernity in the West. My impression is that the RCC more inhibited than promoted progress, but that demonstration is a scholarly effort, and beyond me.

Edited by Omnivorous, : get my soupçon right

Edited by Omnivorous, :


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 7:09 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 180 of 506 (768848)
09-14-2015 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by kbertsche
09-14-2015 11:26 AM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
kbertsche writes:

More to the point, it can be argued that there would not be modern science without Christianity. Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Boyle, Maxwell, Faraday, etc. were motivated by their Christian convictions to develop modern science. Without Christianity we would arguably still be stuck with Greek science.

They stood on the shoulders of Greek giants, and the Renaissance and Enlightenment thinkers who rescued those thinkers from the church, as well as the contributions of Islamic scholars. What the scientists you named most enjoyed was a lack of suppression from religious authority.

By the broadest imprimatur you give Christianity, we must also hold them responsible for every bad idea and ideology that emerged in the West.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2015 11:26 AM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2015 12:54 PM Omnivorous has responded
 Message 185 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2015 1:27 PM Omnivorous has responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 184 of 506 (768853)
09-14-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by NoNukes
09-14-2015 12:54 PM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
Most, sir, most.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2015 12:54 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 356 days)
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 186 of 506 (768856)
09-14-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by kbertsche
09-14-2015 1:27 PM


Re: The Delusions of Religion's Accomodation
kbertsche writes:

This grossly understates the situation.

Any sentence-length summary does. But that begs the question of whether "strong Christian convictions" uniquely motivate great science.

Scientists of many faiths do brilliant work, and I'm sure many of them will describe their passion for knowledge in spiritual or near-spiritual terms; members of your list, as men of their time and place, would have spoken in Christian terms.

Now, more than ever, science is international and cosmopolitan. I see no reason to believe that Christian scientists out-achieve those of other faiths or atheists.

As I said, these pioneers of modern science were motivated by their Christian convictions to develop modern science. It's not just that they had a conducive environment to pursue science (which they did); they also had strong personal Christian convictions which motivated them to do science.

All successful scientists have strong convictions which motivate them to do science. Even if you demonstrate the scientists on your list had strong Christian convictions, you won't have demonstrated that those motivations were the sine qua non of their achievements.

Of course, atheists have their lists, too. This is the first one I found on Google:

quote:
Neils Bohr - physicist
Francis Crick - co-discoverer of DNA
Thomas Edison - inventor
Paul Erdos - mathematician
Richard Feynman - physicist
Sigmund Freud - founder of psychoanalysis
Edmond Halley - astronomer
Peter Higgs - postulated existence of the Higgs boson
Alfred Kinsey - sex researcher
Joseph Lagrange - mathematician
Ernst Mach - physicist
J. Robert Oppenheimer - physicist and "father of the atom bomb"
Linus Pauling - co-discoverer of DNA
Carl Sagan - astronomer
Erwin Schrödinger - physicist
Alan Turing - mathematician and "father of computer science"

This is a silly game, played out of parochial pride, and unworthy of the labors and sacrifices of all great thinkers, Christians or not. I'll not play it further.

Edited by Omnivorous, : too many "sentence"s


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2015 1:27 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by kbertsche, posted 09-14-2015 2:37 PM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 09-14-2015 3:38 PM Omnivorous has acknowledged this reply

  
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