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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 263 of 506 (771064)
10-19-2015 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Tangle
10-18-2015 12:33 PM


Re: Making saints up
Hi, Tangle.

Tangle writes:

I see that our dear pope has exploited the PR opportunity of his family conclave by creating a couple of new saints - the parents of a saint he made earlier.

I don't know anything about the history here, but according to your article, it was a different pope (Pius XI, back in 1925) who made the daughter a saint.

Tangle writes:

Their miracle was apparently in praying for a miracle.

Are you sure you read that right? The parents prayed, the Martins (allegedly) interceded, the children got better, and the Martins were made saints.

Tangle writes:

I reckon if I hung around a hospital for a week or so, laying on hands, I'd perform a few miracle cures too.

Perhaps. But, could you do it over 100 years after your death? That's what the Martins are alleged to have done.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2015 12:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2015 12:07 PM Blue Jay has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 270 of 506 (771073)
10-19-2015 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Tangle
10-19-2015 12:07 PM


Re: Making saints up
Hi, Tangle.

Tangle writes:

If everything you say is spot on true it's still bat-shit, goon-ball bonkers - if not more so. Which is MY point.

Having been raised without the slightest inkling of how Catholicism works, the whole idea of saints seems weird to me. But, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "crazy": I think there's a least a modicum of internal consistency to the story you shared.

But, I have to agree with you about the notion of "miracles." There's no end of people out there claiming that God healed their child when the doctors said there was no chance. To me, the most reasonable conclusion is that some error was made in either assessing, presenting or interpreting what the child's "chances" were. All the "miracle" healing stories from the past involve people being suddenly raised to perfect health from their deathbeds: but nowadays, most medical miracles seem to involve a few days of bed rest with an IV drip in addition to the prayers of loved ones.

I remember being taught about alleged miracles that happened in the early parts of Mormon history, such as the miracle of the gulls. As a kid, I was taught that in 1848 (the Mormons' first year in Utah), a huge flock of gulls miraculously appeared out of nowhere to save the Mormons' first harvest from swarms of crickets, and everyone praised God for His greatness.

Of course, despite being very prolific diary-writers, the early Mormons seem to have meticulously avoided leaving any firsthand attestations of the alleged miracle, preferring to instead let it be gradually mythologized over the pulpit a few decades later.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2015 12:07 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 1:24 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 275 of 506 (771113)
10-20-2015 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
10-20-2015 1:24 AM


Miracle of the Gulls
Hi, Faith.

I think there's an even simpler explanation. 1848 was the Mormons' first year in Utah (they had arrived in the previous autumn), so they had no experience with the local ecology, and didn't know what to expect when they planted their first crops.

The bottom line to me is that at some point, somebody pointed out how gulls eat crickets, and then the story escalated over a couple of decades until it took on mythological proportions.

I believe this is the reason why the miracles of the past seem so much more miraculous than alleged modern-day miracles. God used to throw fireballs from the sky on cue, instantly vanquish diseases with a word or a touch, and turn water into wine before the end of the party. Anymore, it seems like all God does is stealthily make people gradually recover from diseases while under the care of vigilant medical professionals, let them walk away from car accidents with just a few bruises and scrapes, or arrange for a friend to remember to pay back some money owed around the time when their creditor is in a minor budget crisis.

The general quality of miracles seems to bear an inverse relationship with the passage of time. Furthermore, the quality of a specific miracle also seems to bear the same inverse relationship with the passage of time, just like "fish stories." I feel like these two things are probably related.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 1:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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