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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 316 of 419 (823556)
11-12-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Tangle
11-12-2017 8:05 AM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
Catholic 'traditions' are dafter and more convoluted than most and as a result are having to change to prevent further loss of followers. The fact that a belief needs to change this radically is evidence of how nonsensical it all is.

Having existed through (and been a major cause of) the dark ages, while maintaining services in an archaic language that very few (church elites) understood, where pomp and ceremony were the drawing points for the crowds, I would expect no less.

How do they compare to Orthodox Greek Christians?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20482
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 317 of 419 (823558)
11-12-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Thugpreacha
11-12-2017 2:01 PM


Re: is communication possible
What does a Zen Deist see?

Nothing I can put in words. Feeling mostly.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Tangle
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Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 318 of 419 (823559)
11-12-2017 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by RAZD
11-12-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
RAZD writes:

Having existed through (and been a major cause of) the dark ages, while maintaining services in an archaic language that very few (church elites) understood, where pomp and ceremony were the drawing points for the crowds, I would expect no less.

During that period they were predominantly a political, diplomatic, financial and military force - religion was the shop front but their purpose was power and control. They had staggering wealth and power and abused it horribly.

How do they compare to Orthodox Greek Christians?

No idea, it ain't my background.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 2:08 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 319 of 419 (823561)
11-12-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Tangle
11-12-2017 2:43 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
Tangle writes:

During that period they were predominantly a political, diplomatic, financial and military force - religion was the shop front but their purpose was power and control. They had staggering wealth and power and abused it horribly.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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RAZD
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Posts: 20482
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 320 of 419 (823564)
11-12-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Tangle
11-12-2017 2:43 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
How do they compare to Orthodox Greek Christians?

No idea, it ain't my background.

Mine neither, but they have been around as long as the Catholics, if not longer.

And I think any ceremony or procession or need to get approval for anything (like weddings, etc) has to be made up.

During that period they were predominantly a political, diplomatic, financial and military force - religion was the shop front but their purpose was power and control. They had staggering wealth and power and abused it horribly.

Can you think of any church is not involved in power and control of people and wealth?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Tangle
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Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 321 of 419 (823576)
11-13-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by RAZD
11-12-2017 4:25 PM


Re: Question: aren't all religions making it up?
RAZD writes:

And I think any ceremony or procession or need to get approval for anything (like weddings, etc) has to be made up.

All our social structures are made up and they have no reason to either change or stay the same unless we decide there are benefits to be had by leaving them alone or changing them.

But with religions - and I'm picking on Catholicism here because it's the biggest and I know most about it - their beliefs are based on what they say they know about god's own structures and desires. They claim knowledge.

So they taught the existence of purgatory, then abandonned it. They taught indulgencies for rituals - and probably still do in some less developed countries. They teach that contraception is a mortal sin punishable by everlating damnation - except in the developed world where it isn't. Their priests must be celebate, except when they adopt converts from Anglicans to help their failing recruitment. And so on.

They have made all this up and are abandonning it because the societies they operate in won't tolerate it any more. They are abandonning what were important 'truths' because they have become embarassing and inconvenient.

Can you think of any church is not involved in power and control of people and wealth?

There are several religions/belief systems that seem fairly benevolent and several forms of christianity itself that are as extreme in their moderacy as Catholicism was, and is, in it's meglamania. But Catholicism's history is almost unique in its overt power play. At the height of its power it was the strongest force in Europe. In the 1500s if you did not do what your priest told you you were in a lot of trouble both in this life and the next.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 4:25 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 322 of 419 (870152)
01-13-2020 3:44 AM


There's a papal face-off in the news today.

Pope Benedict resigned - in itself a massively controversial issue, how can a man appointed by god himself resign his post? - but is now intervening in Pope Francis's decisions about celebacy.

There's a global problem in priest recruitment caused by the paedophile and abusive priests outrage and improving education generally. There's a particular problem in Africa where the church's evil policy on contraceptives is killing millions and in the Amazon where they can't recruit priests because of their celibacy law.

So Francis want to allow Amazonian priests to marry but Benedict is intervening and says that they mustn't.

Catholics are having to make stuff up faster and faster these days.

Retired Pope warns against celibacy change

Two deluded old crackpots (actually I quite like Francis, he seems to at least follow something like Christ's message and a little less of the Catholic dogma.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 01-13-2020 4:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 419 (870153)
01-13-2020 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Tangle
01-13-2020 3:44 AM


It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
So Francis want to allow Amazonian priests to marry but Benedict is intervening and says that they mustn't.
Catholics are having to make stuff up faster and faster these days.
Retired Pope warns against celibacy change/

So I guess this whole issue is to be decided on the basis of Catholic tradition rather than the Bible? That would figure of course. It's Catholic tradition, meaning the stuff they made up, that requires celibacy of its priests, which is THE major cause of all the sexual misconduct in the RCC going back to the beginning. Now it's paedophilia, often homosexual, but it used to be priests and nuns getting together. All of it is caused by the rule of celibacy.

Which is contrary to scripture, in case anyone cares:

1Timothy 4:1-3: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking **** in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

This passage was recognized by the Reformers, at least particularly by Luther, as condemning the practices of the RCC which at the time of its writing were yet future, the passage being prophetic. It clearly refers to two RCC practices, the rule of celibacy for priests and the abstention from meats, which in the last century was on Fridays only. These days Protestants are not educated in any of this history and I've heard this passage discussed as related to all kinds of things other than the RCC. The RCC has indeed made up most of its doctrine, deriving very little of it from the Bible. That is what the Protestant Reformationj was all about.

I suppose Francis isn't interested in going back to the Bible, he just likes the idea of allowing priests to marry in some circumstances to make life easier in the church. Just another twist of the tradition without reference to God's word. Benedict is of course insisting on holding onto the RCC doctrine of celibacy, also nothing but tradition, denounced by the scripture I quote above. Neither one cares a fig for God's word.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 01-13-2020 6:32 AM Faith has responded
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 01-13-2020 11:04 AM Faith has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 324 of 419 (870156)
01-13-2020 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
01-13-2020 4:52 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:

So I guess this whole issue is to be decided on the basis of Catholic tradition rather than the Bible?

By tradition I assume you mean that it's something they made up - then yes, of course - they made everything up.

As for biblical they make those arguments (and others) here:

Celibacy and the Priesthood

But I'm not remotely interested in a quotation battle, that get everyone nowhere, but I do love this final rationalisation...

quote:
In fact, it is precisely the holiness of marriage that makes celibacy precious; for only what is good and holy in itself can be given up for God as a sacrifice. Just as fasting presupposes the goodness of food, celibacy presupposes the goodness of marriage. To despise celibacy, therefore, is to undermine marriage itself—as the early Fathers pointed out.

Gotta love them cartwheeling Catholics.

The change is neither scriptural nor dogmatic, it's just pragmatic.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 01-13-2020 4:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Faith, posted 01-13-2020 6:43 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34460
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 325 of 419 (870157)
01-13-2020 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
01-13-2020 6:32 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Cartwheeling indeed.

'Course fasting isn't a lifetime obligation as their version of celibacy is. But we don't have to worry our little heads about such small glitches, do we?


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ringo
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Message 326 of 419 (870160)
01-13-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
01-13-2020 4:52 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
1 Timothy writes:

having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


I like that phrase.

1 Timothy writes:

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats....


Interesting juxtaposition there. As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn't command people to abstain from meats - but you claim that God did until Noah.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 327 of 419 (870161)
01-13-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by ringo
01-13-2020 11:04 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Ringo writes:

Interesting juxtaposition there. As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn't command people to abstain from meats

The Catholic church claimed that it was a sin to eat meat on Friday - particularly Good Friday.

quote:
In Catholicism, specific regulations are passed by individual episcopates. In the United States in 1966, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops passed Norms II and IV that bound all persons from age fourteen to abstain from meat on Fridays of Lent and through the year.

I see that they're had another shot at it in 1983

quote:
Current practice of fast and abstinence is regulated by Canons 1250–1253 of the 1983 code. They specify that all Fridays throughout the year, and the time of Lent are penitential times throughout the entire Church. All adults (those who have attained the 'age of majority', which is 18 years in canon law) are bound by law to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday until the beginning of their sixtieth year.

'Fast' apparently means eating no more than one meal in the day. I've never heard of this one - just another way of controlling their sheep I guess.

But I don't think it got any traction - this from 2011

quote:
Trying to re-establish the practice of abstaining from meat on a Friday may prove difficult for the Church. Many Catholics have already shown that in many areas of life, they are not always willing to follow rules laid down by the clergy.

Catholics reviving meat penance


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by ringo, posted 01-13-2020 11:04 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32031
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 328 of 419 (870162)
01-13-2020 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Tangle
01-13-2020 12:22 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Traditionally in the three Judaic Faiths including Judaism, Christianity and Islam; fasting was from Sunup to Sundown usually with a large meal right after the official sunset.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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dwise1
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Posts: 3953
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 329 of 419 (870165)
01-13-2020 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by ringo
01-13-2020 11:04 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn't command people to abstain from meats - but you claim that God did until Noah.

First a set of shtupid questions, then a linguistic joke. Nah, first the joke:


In my Old English seminar four decades ago, the professor warned against false cognates with a joke from Catholic school. In the Latin class, the students had an exam where they were given sentences in Latin had to translate them into English. One was "Carpe diem", "Seize the day." One student knew what "diem" meant, but not "carpe" so he reasoned it out:


"Carpe" looks like the English "carp" which is a fish. Therefore "carpe diem" must mean "fish day", which every Catholic knows is Friday.

Our professor called making such a mistake a "howler", so this was a "double howler."

 
Now to the question.

My older sister is a member of Calvary Chapel, the original site of that chain of churches and Ground Zero of the Jesus Freak Movement circa 1970. In her Bible study class on Genesis, they're pushing the more recent YEC claims that there was no meat eating before the Flood -- all our present-day carnivores with their near-perfect carnivorous characteristics were actually vegetarians (while that may be complicated by the YEC claims of "basic created kinds", which was concocted ad-hoc to address a few of the basic logistical impossibilities of a literal biblical Ark, it still remains that many of those "basic created kinds" still start out fundamentally as carnivores). However, the earlier story was that meat eating started with The Fall; when Mark Twain wrote a depiction of The Fall he describes Adam and Eve fleeing Eden surrounded by scenes of carnage as some animals suddenly became predators and others prey.

So the question, assuming the newer version in which meat eating didn't start until the Flood (which you appear to be referring to), is how do we explain Abel's burnt offerings to YHWH (AKA "God")? Yes, he got wool and possibly milk and other dairy products from his sheep, but why then kill them to make burnt offerings?


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7296
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 330 of 419 (870172)
01-13-2020 5:13 PM


Despite my better judgement I watched the film the Two Popes on Netflix. It's pretty good though obviously it fudges a lot of issues, Ratzinger gets away with a big muffled section on his part in covering up child abuse.

Still, worth a watch.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 01-13-2020 5:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
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