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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 346 of 505 (870199)
01-14-2020 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
01-14-2020 11:46 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:

Forbidding meat is already wrong according to the Bible...


Forbidding meat was wrong at one time and eating meat was wrong at one time (according to you). The whole meat issue is ambiguous, which makes my point that "the Bible" is not monolithic.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:55 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 347 of 505 (870200)
01-14-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by ringo
01-14-2020 11:53 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Oh you give me a headache with your weird illogic. Meat wasn't for us to eat until after the Flood, that's very clear according to the Bible but since then we are free to eat meat.

(I tend to think of this as related to the deterioration of the whole Creation after the Flood, the decrease in longevity for instance that had preceded it, and even though plants and animals would also have suffered some loss that might reduce their nutritional value, meat would probably have offered more nutrition to hard-working humanity in the Flood-devastated world).

So AFTER THAT to forbid it is wrong according to the Bible. I don't see that we are REQUIRED to eat it, but forbidding it is clearly wrong.

Sigh.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ringo, posted 01-14-2020 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 01-14-2020 12:08 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 348 of 505 (870202)
01-14-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Faith
01-14-2020 11:55 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:

Meat wasn't for us to eat until after the Flood, that's very clear according to the Bible but since then we are free to eat meat.


Why? Where's the logic in that? The dividing line for good/evil was at the supposed "Fall", not at the Flood.

Faith writes:

(I tend to think of this as related to the deterioration of the whole Creation after the Flood...


Which you made up.

Faith writes:

... the decrease in longevity for instance that had preceded it....


The supposed deterioration doesn't work as a reason for decreased longevity. Methuselah lived much longer than Adam.

Faith writes:

... even though plants and animals would also have suffered some loss that might reduce their nutritional value...


Which you made up.

Faith writes:

... meat would probably have offered more nutrition to hard-working humanity in the Food-devastated world).


As it would in the pre-Flood "Fallen" world.

Faith writes:

So AFTER THAT to forbid it is wrong according to the Bible. I don't see that we are REQUIRED to eat it, but forbidding it is clearly wrong.


Which doesn't make a lick of sense.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 12:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 349 of 505 (870204)
01-14-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by ringo
01-14-2020 12:08 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
The deterioration after the Flood ought to be obvious for pete's sake. Death and disease were already in the world since the Fall but after the Flood the whole environment changed for the worse. The decrease in longevity is clear from the Bible itself, I certainly didn't make that up, but it's possible to infer many other changes that contributed to hardship for man and beast.

The vast majority of living things had died, all were starting over with reduced genetic diversity, the world must have been devastated, and though it recovered to some extent, the changed climate, ice age, soil depletion would have meant the recovery fell far short of the level of vigorous life before the Flood.

Both Methuselah and Adam lived before the Flood, I was talking about after the Flood when you can track the decrease in longevity through the genealogies.

Yeah meat would have offered more nutrition before the Fall or the Flood, but pay attention, the idea is that before the Flood there was adequate nutrition in plant life, but afterward with the deterioration of all forms of life more was needed.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by ringo, posted 01-14-2020 12:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by jar, posted 01-14-2020 12:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 01-14-2020 7:06 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 350 of 505 (870206)
01-14-2020 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
01-14-2020 12:32 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
There is no Fall in the Bible and death existed before the Garden of Eden was created which is why there was a Tree of Life.

Only fools that have never honestly read the Bible believe in silliness like the Fall.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 12:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 1:08 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7909
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 351 of 505 (870209)
01-14-2020 12:56 PM


They say it's ok to eat fish 'cos they're cold blooded. Don't ask me why that's a thing for them or the bible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18751
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 352 of 505 (870217)
01-14-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
01-14-2020 12:32 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:

The deterioration after the Flood ought to be obvious for pete's sake.


Not only is it not "obvious", it's contrary to the evidence.

Faith writes:

...after the Flood the whole environment changed for the worse.


That's both factually false and unscriptural.

Faith writes:

... the idea is that before the Flood there was adequate nutrition in plant life, but afterward with the deterioration of all forms of life more was needed.


That's also completely made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 12:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 12:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 353 of 505 (870224)
01-15-2020 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by ringo
01-14-2020 7:06 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
ringo writes:

Faith writes:

The deterioration after the Flood ought to be obvious for pete's sake.

Not only is it not "obvious", it's contrary to the evidence.

I gave evidence for my side, where's yours?

ringo writes:

Faith writes:

...after the Flood the whole environment changed for the worse.

That's both factually false and unscriptural.

I believe I said it's an inference and listed some differences that support the inference. But of course it's not "unscriptural," that's a really silly idea. Scripturally, after the Fall thorns and thistles came up and growing food became difficult, so much more so one would expect would there be such problems after the Flood wiped out the whole early environment. For it to be "unscriptural" you'd have to show that scripture says the environment changed for the better. You got a verse or two for that?

ringo writes:

Faith writes:

... the idea is that before the Flood there was adequate nutrition in plant life, but afterward with the deterioration of all forms of life more was needed.

That's also completely made up.

No, it's an inference based on Biblical references plus common sense. Such thinking is not "made up." Simple logic should tell you that, or even basic principles of language.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 01-14-2020 7:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 01-17-2020 7:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 354 of 505 (870225)
01-15-2020 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by jar
01-14-2020 12:39 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
jar writes:

There is no Fall in the Bible and death existed before the Garden of Eden was created...

You must have repeated that canard dozens of times by now and been answered that many times:

Romans 5:12 writes:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned …

jar writes:

which is why there was a Tree of Life.

As just quoted, the Bible says death ENTERED by sin, which was the Fall when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, therefore death did not exist before that point so the Tree of Life had some other purpose than you are imagining, which is usually understood to sustain the life Adam and Eve had, in that case immortality, just as food sustains our mortal lives now.

And of course God's barring the way to that tree after the Fall is understood to protect them against becoming immortal in their sinful condition, as Satan and his demons are.

jar writes:

Only fools that have never ******** read the Bible believe in silliness like the Fall

So you have no scruples about condemning the entire history of Christian theologians as fools who have never sincerely read the Bible. Obviously we should have made you Pope over all history and theology as the only one who ever understood these things.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by jar, posted 01-14-2020 12:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by jar, posted 01-15-2020 6:58 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 355 of 505 (870228)
01-15-2020 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Tangle
01-14-2020 12:56 PM


the two popes movie
Just to say: I've been watching it from time to time and it IS very good, I'm glad. I do have a problem reading the subtitles so I'm glad so much of it is in English. I hadn't known who the actors were before or I might not have hesitated at all as I did, but the two of them are great, Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryce. And it is raising some of the important issues in Catholicism I appreciate the opportunity to think about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Tangle, posted 01-14-2020 12:56 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 356 of 505 (870230)
01-15-2020 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
01-15-2020 1:08 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
No Faith, the Bible does not say that. The author of Romans asserts that but without providing any evidence of its truth.

Faith writes:

So you have no scruples about condemning the entire history of Christian theologians as fools who have never sincerely read the Bible.

Correct. Fools and charlatans are the best description for the Christian Apologists. What is truly deplorable is those fools that buy their snake oil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 1:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 7:27 AM jar has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 357 of 505 (870235)
01-15-2020 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by jar
01-15-2020 6:58 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Amazing. Romans isn't the Bible according to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by jar, posted 01-15-2020 6:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 01-15-2020 7:46 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32908
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 358 of 505 (870242)
01-15-2020 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Faith
01-15-2020 7:27 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:

Amazing. Romans isn't the Bible according to you.

Correct Faith. Romans is only one piece that was included in most but not all Canons. There is no such thing as "The Bible™" but rather a whole variety of Bibles containing different material.

And the fact remains that what you posted from Romans is a simply assertion with no evidence to support it. It is just the opinion of the author of Romans and contradicted by what is actually written in Genesis.

Have you ever read the Bible Faith?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 7:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 8:01 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 361 by Phat, posted 01-15-2020 12:01 PM jar has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 67 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 359 of 505 (870249)
01-15-2020 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by jar
01-15-2020 7:46 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Your unbelievable ego and arrogance against the history of Christian thought is absolutely breathtaking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by jar, posted 01-15-2020 7:46 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 01-15-2020 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14583
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 360 of 505 (870254)
01-15-2020 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Faith
01-15-2020 8:01 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
jar claims that Christians will be judged by what they do. Calling out the majority of professing Christians as being ignorant and killing the faith of weaker believers will likely require an explanation before God some day. And protesting that he does many little "good thing" like taking out the neighbors trash and putting shopping carts back in the corral will not carry enough weight to offset the damage he does through his pen. I am not God and cannot imagine what jars encounter with the Risen Christ will be like but i know that God respects the humble and resists the proud. All of jars fancy book learnin, critical thinking, and arrogant public commentary against other believers will likely be weighed against whatever good the gun toting Texan has done. As Christians we need to pray for him rather than belittle him...though it is tempting.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 8:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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