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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 376 of 419 (870376)
01-18-2020 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Phat
01-18-2020 10:27 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Phat writes:

I feel as if such communion can exist. What would stop it?

Yes, I know that you believe that. Now please explain how you can know your communion is any different than what Jim Jones experienced or as testable as the communion between seventy-eight million Japanese citizens and their deity?

Phat writes:

It could exist, even if we made up the interaction, God could still be listening.

That is not communion Phat; communion is a two way interaction. You might as well say that Big Brother could still be listening and in fact it's far more likely that No Such Agency really is listening.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 10:27 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 12:45 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 377 of 419 (870384)
01-18-2020 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by jar
01-18-2020 10:54 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
jar writes:

Now please explain how you can know your communion is any different than what Jim Jones experienced or as testable as the communion between seventy-eight million Japanese citizens and their deity?

It is different because One God is real and the others are not. (On Gods end) But on the human end, nothing is any different. We know (or suspect) that Jim Jones had mental issues, so that explains some of it. Can we honestly claim that 78 million Japanese had mental issues? And finally...are we ready to indict the CCoI for having a giant collective mental fantasy regarding God? This may well satisfy the evidence on the human end, but the jury is still out on whether such communion can even exist or what it means to us and for us.

Look, I know you make a valid argument as to why humans make God up. It seems clear that we often imagine God to be as we want him to be. But one must stand on their belief if their belief is to have any impact or meaning in their life. Perhaps the question is this:

Should we "throw away" God as *we* understand Him? If so, how could we call ourselves believers?

Japan was collectively asked to "throw away" the idea that Hirohito was divine.
Japans Emperor: A Mortal Man

quote:
He asked his people to reject the ''false conception that the Emperor is divine and that the Japanese people are superior to other races.'' He then said to his wife: ''Do you see any difference? Do I look more human to you now?''

Hirohito's transition from someone ''sacred and inviolable'' to a revered figurehead under a revised Constitution seemed a happy one. The Emperor attended to ceremonial duties, traveled widely and pursued his lifelong interest in marine biology. No longer a figure of awe, he had won new freedom as a symbol of continuity in a nation of bewildering change.


I can imagine what would happen if Jesus were to appear and tell the Nationalist Christians that He too was just a man and that they too should reject him as divine and reject the idea that they were any better than anybody else.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 10:54 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 1:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 378 of 419 (870386)
01-18-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Phat
01-18-2020 12:45 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Phat writes:

Should we "throw away" God as *we* understand Him? If so, how could we call ourselves believers?

You could call yourself a believer just as I call myself a believer. You should really understand what you and I have discussed many times.

If GOD really exists then whether that GOD is like any of the God(s) or god(s) we humans invent is irrelevant, The GOD that exists if one exists will be what that reality presents. We have absolutely no control over that. What we do have control over is what we actually do; nothing else.

Phat writes:

Japan was collectively asked to "throw away" the idea that Hirohito was divine.

And what changed? The biggest change was that Japanese decided that dying for the Divine Emperor was stupid. What changed was that Japan decided that their needs could be better met through commerce, competition and cooperation than through conquest and exploitation.

Phat writes:

I can imagine what would happen if Jesus were to appear and tell the Nationalist Christians that He too was just a man and that they too should reject him as divine and reject the idea that they were any better than anybody else.

And we have talked about that before as well since the Bible has Jesus telling worshipers just that over and over and over again.

Remember Luke 4:25-28?

Remember Matthew 25?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 12:45 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 379 of 419 (870471)
01-20-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tangle
09-10-2015 4:26 AM


Re: Clarion call
Tangle writes:

Atheists have a large angry dog in this fight.

There are several angry dogs. Christian nationalism has one. Islam has at least one. Populists have one. And as for the Catholic Church, they would do well to admit their sins and move on as long as every hurt Catholic in the world doesn't try and sue them for their last billions.

Religions like to think that they are the arbiters of morality and try to plant their daft and dangerous ideas everywhere in society from schools to parliamentary lawmaking. It's good news that they're dumping some of their dogma and becoming more civilized but they need a boot along the way from people who have no fear of them.
When economic times get tough, the ranks of the religious increase. A vocal minority of angry atheists can't legislate morality any more than the church can. When all your money is riding on God, you don't fold your cards easily.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2015 4:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 11:07 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 380 of 419 (870518)
01-21-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:18 PM


Re: Clarion call
Phat writes:

When economic times get tough, the ranks of the religious increase.


Is that true?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:54 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 419 (870527)
01-21-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
01-21-2020 11:07 AM


Business Meetings After Mass
Sure. It's even printed on our money. In God We Trust I suspect that what we really trust is the money itself. I recall my own Father having talks with other parishioners after service and the discussion always seemed to be about business, future plans, and boasting about new cars. In their mind, God's blessing always translated into material prosperity. Until he(Dad) became sick with cancer. He stayed away from the church then. He told us he didn't want a bunch of people feeling sorry for him.

Religion may well be made up, but the people who value it would sooner make it it up rather than reject it.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 11:07 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 6:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 383 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 3:01 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 382 of 419 (870543)
01-21-2020 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Phat
01-21-2020 3:54 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:

Sure. It's even printed on our money. In God We Trust I suspect that what we really trust is the money itself.


Probably. So is it really true that in bad economic times people turn to gods?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:44 AM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 383 of 419 (870548)
01-22-2020 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Phat
01-21-2020 3:54 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:

Religion may well be made up, but the people who value it would sooner make it it up rather than reject it.

You know that religions are made up because you know that everyone that has a belief other than your own is made up. You know Muslims are wrong, they know Christians are wrong. it's not a question of who's right, they're both obviously all made up.

The fact that some people would rather believe in something that's imaginary than not is a pretty obvious fact and the motivation for why they do so is also obvious.

But it's not universal Phat, most of Northern Europe does not have the US's hang up with religion. You live in a bubble of church, religious forums and people that go to church and write religious blogs. All you hear are the silly platitudes that they spout and you copy without actually thinking about them. When you're asked to explain, you can't, so you avoid.

A rational person would ask themselves why they can't answer the questions that are asked, but religous people can't properly question themselves because they need to cling on to the belief that there's something better after this - otherwise what's the point? The point is life Phat, life here and now. Don't waste it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:40 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 419 (870558)
01-22-2020 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Tangle
01-22-2020 3:01 AM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
The reason that I cling on to the belief is because of undeniable experiences that I had that point to God's existence.

It may have been easy for you to throw that away, but not so for me. I have nothing else at age 60. Im too old to hustle harder. Im too cynical to accept the world as it is being as good as it will ever get. I do not want to be a persistant pessimist (like Marvin the Android) but I see wars, ethnic and racial conflicts, and bumpy roads ahead as a global population encounters raw climate change.

Just because a person (or a people) believes in God does not mean we roll over andf go back to sleep expecting Him to fix everything. I am well aware of the challenges facing humanity, but throwing God and religion away wont fix any of them.(either)


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 3:01 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 10:25 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 419 (870559)
01-22-2020 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by ringo
01-21-2020 6:56 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
ringo writes:

So is it really true that in bad economic times people turn to gods?

I keep forgetting that you include atheists. What I mean is that believers rely on their relationship with God and each other more when times are tough. When times are prosperous, we tend to worship a God of our own imagination Who blesses each and every business deal and Who wants not only to make America Great Again but Who sees material prosperity as a legacy for our children---indeed a birthright.

So to answer your question, yes and no.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 6:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 2:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7343
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 386 of 419 (870562)
01-22-2020 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by Phat
01-22-2020 9:40 AM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:

The reason that I cling on to the belief is because of undeniable experiences that I had that point to God's existence.

Lots of fundies from all religions say that. But it's not a fluke that your 'undeniable experience' was a Christian one in a Christian country nor that non-Christians in non-Christian countries that have never heard of Christianity ever get that experience.

Instead they get their own culture-related 'undeniable experience' - people in Islamic cultures get Muslim experiences. That really should tell you something. It's a powerful, cultural and need-related delusion. It's not real and I suspect you know it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 3:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17926
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 387 of 419 (870599)
01-22-2020 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Phat
01-22-2020 9:44 AM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:

What I mean is that believers rely on their relationship with God and each other more when times are tough.


And I'm asking if that is true. I think in hard times some believers realize that God ain't gonna do it for them. A dose of reality often cures a bad case of fantasy.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 3:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13699
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 388 of 419 (870605)
01-22-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Tangle
01-22-2020 10:25 AM


All Religions Are Not The Same.
Tangle writes:

But it's not a fluke that your 'undeniable experience' was a Christian one in a Christian country nor that non-Christians in non-Christian countries that have never heard of Christianity ever get that experience.

Instead they get their own culture-related 'undeniable experience' - people in Islamic cultures get Muslim experiences. That really should tell you something. It's a powerful, cultural and need-related delusion. It's not real and I suspect you know it.

This was worth a google. So I found this:
Do Miracles Happen in Non-Christian Religions?
First off, no, I do not know this. The word delusions is not part of my description of what unexplained events I have seen. They were very real to me and to two others present, and to this day we would all be able to relate the same story without collusion or deception. It was etched into our memories. This article does have a couple of points, however.

  • quote:
    Consider, for example, the teachings of Siddhartha Buddha. He was agnostic (at best) about the existence of a personal and all-powerful God. Furthermore, he discouraged the working of marvels (e.g., magic) because the desire for power or influence would be a hindrance to enlightenment. Long after Buddha’s lifetime, however, stories of his great powers began to emerge. Although later Buddhist teaching allowed for a variety of doctrinal views, original teachings by the Buddha seemed to exclude or at least provide little basis for miracle-working and would be reason to give critics pause.
    So of course miricles happen sporadically in other religions. What you fail to understand is that all religions are not simply relative to the culture. God stepped out of eternity into time on this planet and happened to speak to the people whom He did for a reason. You guys claim it is all made up, but I fail to find sufficient proof for your claim.
  • quote:
    For every miracle claim, possible supernatural and natural causes should be considered. A miracle is an act of God in history for which no natural explanation is adequate. Thus we should start by asking whether any adequate natural explanations may be given.
    Logical enough. I would guess that out of 1000 miracles reported, perhaps 10% are genuine.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 386 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 10:25 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 396 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 6:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13699
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 389 of 419 (870606)
    01-22-2020 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 387 by ringo
    01-22-2020 2:14 PM


    Re: Business Meetings After Mass
    ringo writes:

    I think in hard times some believers realize that God ain't gonna do it for them.

    I believe that God works in mysterious ways.(Cliche, I know! ) God has used the arguments here at EvC to make me realize that God won't simply carry me through life...I am charged to do my best and to follow the message and to have a mind open to logic, reason, and reality. At the same time, this only makes God more real to me than before. As I heal from my compulsive gambling, I realize that God does not owe me anything (Though I still get very mad at thieves...what they do is take rather than expect.) A miracle is always possible, and if I believe that God is good and not simply complete, I also believe that God is capable of a miracle at any time.
    Catholic Answers writes:

    Another possibility may be that out of his “goodwill” God may work a miracle in response to the personal prayer of a non-Christian. Such an act of providence would obviously be one small part of a larger plan to bring the person to believe in the one true God. God, after all, “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4).

    Tangle and you often claim that one reason you are no longer believers is that you see no evidence of God or anything He might do.

    Miracles by definition are unexpected. There will never be a film crew at the scene or a scientist running tests.

    Edited by Thugpreacha, : spellcheck


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 2:14 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 390 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 3:51 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17926
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 390 of 419 (870607)
    01-22-2020 3:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
    01-22-2020 3:42 PM


    Re: Business Meetings After Mass
    Phat writes:

    ... if I believe that God is good and not simply complete....


    Complete would be more than just good. You are limiting your made-up god.

    Phat writes:

    Miracles by definition are unexpected. There will never be a film crew at the scene or a scientist running tests.


    That's a convenient definition, isn't it? Define it specifically so that it can never be tested. Why not use an honest definition instead?

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 3:42 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 391 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 4:35 PM ringo has responded

      
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