Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9073 total)
80 online now:
FossilDiscovery, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Phat (3 members, 77 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,243 Year: 4,355/6,534 Month: 569/900 Week: 93/182 Day: 27/38 Hour: 1/1

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 286 of 372 (774024)
12-12-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Tangle
12-11-2015 3:25 PM


Tangle

Well phrased my friend but to say, --- that the numbers affected by it in our countries is too small to matter, --- is like saying that just a bit of slavery in our country is too small to matter.

I do not like the idea of having to ban anything in a free world but as you have noted, other countries have taken that step to insure that the freedom men enjoy, women can also enjoy.

That is the first duty of all free people. If only some of us are free, then none of us are.

Regards
dL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2015 3:25 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 12:52 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 287 of 372 (774027)
12-12-2015 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by AZPaul3
12-11-2015 4:18 PM


AZPaul3

There is no such thing as religious rights that are not granted by a government except your thinking. But you are not allowed to act on your thinking if it effects others negatively.

We live in secular systems, not theocracies.

Sura 24:31 is men telling women how to act and dress and you seem to like men ordering their slaves.

Would you like to be a Muslim woman?

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by AZPaul3, posted 12-11-2015 4:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 8:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 288 of 372 (774028)
12-12-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
12-12-2015 12:16 PM


Ringo writes:

Don't confuse "legal" with "legitimate".

Are you claiming that laws found to be fair by the Court of Human Rights are not legitimate? If so you have a lot of work ahead of you.

There's nothing "extreme" about a hijab.

I've already given you my personal views of the hijab - I have no problem with it. With the caveat that it can be a used to oppress and subjugate women, albeit to a lessor extent than full body coverings.


I don't know if you're deliberately trying to bait and switch....
The topic covers the hijab - it's right there in the title - as well as "full body covering". If you can understand the difference, please make that clear. If you think extending a "full body covering" ban to headscarves is sensible, please make that clear too.

I am fully aware of the title, thank you. I have now said - twice - that I do not think that we should ban the hijab. I have also said that although I believe there are better arguments for banning full body covering (in public) I personally don't agree with banning it. The problem is small - in France estimated at less that 2,000 women - there are better ways of dealing with problems of that scale.

I have also said that there are problems with all three clothes because they all have the intent and practical application of hiding women from society. Where this is the case, I object to it - as I would with any religion or cultural practice that has that underlying intent.

Are you having difficulty dealing with nuanced arguments?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 12-12-2015 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 1:12 PM Tangle has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 289 of 372 (774029)
12-12-2015 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 12:22 PM


TGIA writes:

Well phrased my friend but to say, --- that the numbers affected by it in our countries is too small to matter, --- is like saying that just a bit of slavery in our country is too small to matter.

I didn't say it was too small to matter. My view is that there are better ways of dealing with issues that only affect a few people than creating laws against the practice that may do more harm than good.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 12:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:33 PM Tangle has taken no action

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 290 of 372 (774030)
12-12-2015 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
12-12-2015 10:38 AM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
ringo

"Why do you want to prevent them?"

I do not want to prevent them but must because I believe most are forced and am willing to let governments find out the truth instead of killing the inquiry as you would do.

So tell us, if surveys showed that most women are forced, would you ban the garb?

Your turn to not evade.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 12-12-2015 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 1:16 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 291 of 372 (774032)
12-12-2015 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by AZPaul3
12-11-2015 4:18 PM


AZPaul3

I have looked at what women want governments to do about their rights.

Return the ones they lost when their countries moved to theocracies and they lost their freedom to dress as they like.

You might have noted in the links you gave that those who say they are voluntarily wearing the garb in question are following the dictates of an imaginary God.

They are following a forced superstition and delusion. Anecdotal information like your is always useful but not nearly as much as statistical information.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/...tested-the-hijab

http://www.frontpagemag.com/...-do-modesty-daniel-greenfield

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by AZPaul3, posted 12-11-2015 4:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 1:40 PM Greatest I am has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 292 of 372 (774034)
12-12-2015 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Tangle
12-12-2015 11:25 AM


In those countries where they have been banned it has been for several reasons....

And what was banned was the full face covering like the burka hiding ones identity, not the hijab. There is only one reason to ban the hijab ... religious bigotry.

In this country there are already laws on the books addressing violence and coercion that also apply to man and wife. If someone thinks they are not strong enough then they can petition their legislature.

I, personally, wish the hijab, the cross and the star of david women wear would just go away, but in a land of freedom, religious freedom to be so adorned, these are protected speech (symbols) of personal conscience. The only reason to ban any of them is pure unadulterated religious bigotry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 11:25 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 1:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 293 of 372 (774035)
12-12-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by ringo
12-12-2015 11:35 AM


ringo

I looked at surveys that show how many are uncomfortable around those who are wearing the garb in question. The more that is covered, the more others are uncomfortable.

This shows how damaging to assimilation or integration the garb in question is.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by ringo, posted 12-12-2015 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 1:20 PM Greatest I am has taken no action
 Message 327 by Bliyaal, posted 12-14-2015 8:38 AM Greatest I am has taken no action

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 294 of 372 (774036)
12-12-2015 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Tangle
12-12-2015 12:52 PM


Tangle

"My view is that there are better ways of dealing with issues that only affect a few people than creating laws against the practice that may do more harm than good."

I thought at some length before taking my position on what other method might be used to teach Muslim men of the immorality of oppressing their wives and daughters. I found nothing that would counteract their twisted interpretations of their holy books.

I would like to see another way so if you have one that you think might work, please share it.

Remember that we are on the outside looking in and that Muslims are quite slow in granting their women equality. Note how Saudi women are only getting to vote for the first time as we speak.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 12:52 PM Tangle has taken no action

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 295 of 372 (774038)
12-12-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:17 PM


You might have noted in the links you gave that those who say they are voluntarily wearing the garb in question are following the dictates of an imaginary God.

They are following a forced superstition and delusion. Anecdotal information like your is always useful but not nearly as much as statistical information.

So now you want to ban churches, synagogues, temples, prayer and all forms of personal conscience because people use them to follow the dictates of an imaginary God and follow a forced superstition and delusion.

You really don't understand the concept of freedom of conscience for all people do you.

I think someone above in this thread already alluded to this, but let me emphasize. The very reason this country has a Constitution with a strong Bill of Rights embedded is to protect us all from bigots like you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:17 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 296 of 372 (774039)
12-12-2015 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by AZPaul3
12-12-2015 1:23 PM


AZPaul3

Total B.S.

Both Christianity and Islam give Jesus respect, although in different ways, and Jesus said that all such praying and displays should be kept or done in private so as not to be seen as bragging about ones piety.

Muslims have taken that to mean that they can brag about their piety and do the one-upmanship that that entails in public.

Insulting other women around you is not a good way for a Muslim woman to integrate or assimilate.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 1:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 3:32 PM Greatest I am has replied

Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 297 of 372 (774041)
12-12-2015 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by AZPaul3
12-12-2015 1:40 PM


AZPaul3

Your constitution was designed to save us from religion. Not to keep religions safe from us showing how immoral they are.

You forget that those who immigrated to the U.S. were running from religious oppression.

But yes, if I could ban all the homophobic and misogynous male producing religions like Christianity and Islam, I would be ever so pleased to do so. If you would not, then it seems you like homophobes and misogynous males.

Please tell us why as well as why the governments should not want to close such institutions whose ideology goes directly against the constitution that demand equality?

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 1:40 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 3:59 PM Greatest I am has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 8492
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 298 of 372 (774043)
12-12-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by AZPaul3
12-12-2015 1:23 PM


AZP writes:

And what was banned was the full face covering like the burka hiding ones identity, not the hijab.

Correct.

There is only one reason to ban the hijab ... religious bigotry.

Interesting.

For the third time, I am not in favour of a ban on the hijab. Is there something really difficult in what I have said that allows people to ignore those words?

Also for the thrid time, I'm not in favour of even a ban on full body covering.

Ok?

The only reason to ban any of them is pure unadulterated religious bigotry.

That's not correct. I've provided a couple of the arguments that France and Belgium have used successfully. They are not religious bigotry, they are legitimate reasons for the benefit of society as a whole and for the protection of their citizens as they see it.

You (and I) also have a legitimate argument, but it is not legitimate to claim that those who have different opinions to you (and me) are, by definition, religious bigots.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 1:23 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by AZPaul3, posted 12-12-2015 3:20 PM Tangle has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 299 of 372 (774059)
12-12-2015 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tangle
12-12-2015 1:58 PM


For the third time, I am not in favour of a ban on the hijab. Is there something really difficult in what I have said that allows people to ignore those words?

Sorry, Tangle. I was using your message to emphasize the point to GIA whose proposal is to ban the hijab.

The only reason to ban any of them is pure unadulterated religious bigotry.

That's not correct. I've provided a couple of the arguments that France and Belgium have used successfully.

My statement was (supposed to be) limited to the hijab, cross and star of david that women wear. I was referring to only those three items in my "any of them" phrase.

I understand, and like you do not agree with, the European ban on full religious coverings that obscure the person's identity. I disagree but I understand the identity and social arguments the European's are making and I do not attribute those arguments solely to bigotry.

The hijab is my only focus as it seems to be GIA's focus. The hijab does not obscure the woman's face and is worn (mostly) from a religious modesty view. So, again, I contend, regardless of some perceived social benefit which I find as smokescreen for the reality, the only reason to ban women from wearing the little gold cross or the little gold star of david or the hijab is religious bigotry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 1:58 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2015 3:54 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message
 Message 305 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:30 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 300 of 372 (774060)
12-12-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:41 PM


Muslims have taken that to mean that they can brag about their piety and do the one-upmanship that that entails in public.

Insulting other women around you is not a good way for a Muslim woman to integrate or assimilate.

Now, that is bullshit.

For all your opposition you know nothing of Islam ... or Christianity.

And wearing the hijab as a modesty directed by her view of her god is only an insult to the bigoted assholes who will find insult anywhere.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:41 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:34 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022