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Author Topic:   Should countries outlaw the hijab, niqab and burka?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7224
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 316 of 372 (774128)
12-13-2015 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by ringo
12-13-2015 1:12 PM


ringo writes:

I'm saying that laws imposing a dress code on Muslim women are not legitimate.

Then you're dead flat wrong. The highest court in Europe has declared that the law forbidding the wearing of full face covering in France and Belgium is legitimate. You can say that you don't agree with it, but can't say that it isn't legitimate.

have a problem with "nuanced" discrimination. When you say, "The full body covering is a symbol of non-integration with the prevalent culture," it sounds like an intent to shoehorn newcomers into "our" culture.

That's about right. Like I want to shoehorn the culture to prevent, the worst aspects of Sharia law, FGM and honour crime. These are extremes that have no place in what you rightly call 'our' culture, which now takes many forms - all of which have to get along together.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 1:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 2:58 PM Tangle has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 317 of 372 (774129)
12-13-2015 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 2:38 PM


Greatest I am writes:

If they are coming to our land to live in our culture, should we not expect that they do so because they like our culture...?


No.

Greatest I am writes:

... if not, why would we want them...?


My grandparents came to Canada for the free farmland. They knew next to nothing about the culture, so how could they possibly like it or want it?

Greatest I am writes:

... why would they want to live where they do not want to fit in?


Have you heard of history at all? The French and English didn't come to Canada because they wanted to "fit in". Why on earth would other immigrants come here to "fit in"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 2:38 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:13 PM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 318 of 372 (774130)
12-13-2015 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 2:41 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
Greatest I am writes:

We will not end oppression and slavery while accepting the signs of it.


We ended slavery without banning chains.

Greatest I am writes:

Nice to know though that you would not make laws that suit the many just to maintain a Muslims man pride of ownership.


Damn right I wouldn't pass laws that suit the many by oppressing the few.

Greatest I am writes:

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
That is an irrefutable moral position.


On the contrary, basic human rights require that the majority does NOT trample on the rights of the minority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 2:41 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:15 PM ringo has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 319 of 372 (774131)
12-13-2015 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Tangle
12-13-2015 2:41 PM


Tangle writes:

The highest court in Europe has declared that the law forbidding the wearing of full face covering in France and Belgium is legitimate.


You're confusing legal with legitimate again.

tangle writes:

I want to shoehorn the culture to prevent, the worst aspects of Sharia law, FGM and honour crime.


None of which have anything to do with the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 2:41 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:16 PM ringo has responded
 Message 323 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2015 5:56 PM ringo has responded

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 723 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 320 of 372 (774133)
12-13-2015 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ringo
12-13-2015 2:52 PM


ringo

Well, as the Australians say, if you do not want to fit in, get the hell out.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 2:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 12-14-2015 10:42 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 723 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 321 of 372 (774134)
12-13-2015 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by ringo
12-13-2015 2:56 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
ringo

Slave ownership and misogyny are not a right.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 2:56 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 12-14-2015 10:44 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 723 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 322 of 372 (774136)
12-13-2015 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
12-13-2015 2:58 PM


ringo

Yes they do. They are aspects of slave ownership and misogyny.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 2:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by ringo, posted 12-14-2015 10:52 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 7224
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 323 of 372 (774142)
12-13-2015 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
12-13-2015 2:58 PM


Ringo writes:

You're confusing legal with legitimate again.

There is no other test other than individual opinion - yours against the European Court of Human Rights. I agree with you - it's probably a mistake to ban the wearing of full face masks but I disagree that it's not legitimate to do so. For different reasons,

None of which have anything to do with the topic.

Only if you wish to artificially seperate one form of female oppression from another. It's all of a piece. But then you also argued for the acceptance of FGM so you're on the wrong side of the entire argument.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 12-13-2015 2:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 12-14-2015 10:58 AM Tangle has responded

Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 723 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 324 of 372 (774151)
12-13-2015 8:40 PM


I found an interesting statistic..

http://www.frontpagemag.com/...-do-modesty-daniel-greenfield

Ringo

Just for you buddy.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/...tested-the-hijab

Strange how women protest while voluntarily wanting to wear the apparel in question.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.


Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5881
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 325 of 372 (774159)
12-14-2015 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 2:38 PM


Put yourself in someone else's shoes
If they are coming to our land to live in our culture, should we not expect that they do so because they like our culture, and if not, why would we want them and why would they want to live where they do not want to fit in?

Lol, no. What an insular and myopic view of the way things ought to be.

If you were offered an incredible job in India, would you automatically disavow your cultural heritage completely and totally assimilate into Indian society by doing all things Indian, dressing in garb typical of Indian culture, and otherwise give no respect to the American culture in which you were raised in? I mean, after all you moved there because you like the culture, right?

If you wouldn't completely disavow your way of life when moving abroad, then why should anyone else be expected to?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 2:38 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Greatest I am, posted 12-14-2015 2:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4788
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 326 of 372 (774163)
12-14-2015 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 9:54 AM


Re: Hold That Weenie!
Her God has a prophet called Jesus who said that such displays of piety and modesty done for God should be done in private.

First, Jesus' command had to do with open displays of piety, not modesty of dress. I know why you want to include "modesty" in this line but it won't work.

To the devout muslim woman her god is allah and qur'an is his word. Jesus was a long ago prophet to be respected, not obeyed over the word of god.

How can you be in such a discussion as this and not know these thing? Muslims are not christians. To them Jesus is not god. And his teachings are not even in the chain of command let alone to be obeyed over god's word in the qur'an.

Also, GIA, Sura 24 has nothing to do with an open display of piety. Sura 24:31 is a command to modesty. Instruction on how the believer should behave. You have been so wrong about so many things this comes as no big surprise.

What you are saying is that religions are free to follow the secular rules and that they can believe but not act on the garbage they believe.

That is governments controlling religions and what they teach.

No, that is limiting the excesses of religious action when it infringes on other's inalienable rights. Exactly what we, the people, set up our government to do.

Too fine a line for your limited thinking abilities, I guess.

For instance, some European Muslim schools have been closed because they were teaching their children to be antiemetic.

I know it's just a spelling error on your part (we all make them), but this is hilarious. Thank you.

One of which is the freedom of conscience and that includes the freedom to practice our individual religions as we determine our individual gods dictate.

Try stoning a fornicator and see how quickly you are brought down.

I've said before that, in my country, religion is limited in action where it infringes on the rights of others. This is an excellent example of my government limiting religious actions, doing what we set the government up to do. Not telling religion what to think, not even telling religion what to teach, but protecting individual rights when anyone seeks to violate those rights.

Again, GIA, concepts too refined for your limited thinking.

No right is inalienable when you live under a government that has power over you. Rhetoric is not reality.

Then you reject the ideal this society seeks to achieve (with more or less success and a lot of work yet to be done).

If you cannot accept this ideal and help work toward it, if you reject this part of our culture, maybe it is you who ought to be leaving.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 9:54 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 712 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 327 of 372 (774171)
12-14-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by Greatest I am
12-12-2015 1:24 PM


That tells me more about those who are uncomfortable around it than about those who wear it.

Should you try to find surveys asking the same question about homosexuals, blacks, etc... ? I'm sure you could get similar results.

Feminist movements burned their bra as a sign of freedom from oppression. Do you want to make bras illegal?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Greatest I am, posted 12-12-2015 1:24 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 328 of 372 (774180)
12-14-2015 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 3:13 PM


Greatest I am writes:

Well, as the Australians say, if you do not want to fit in, get the hell out.


If you're not full-blooded aboriginal, that statement is pretty ironic. If you are, I'm sorry but we're not going anywhere.

Far from embracing the aboriginal culture, we imposed ours on them. That attempt at assimilation caused more problems than it solved.

We don't want to make the same mistake again. Instead, we'll absorb the good aspects of incoming cultures and we'll tolerate the other aspects. That's the Canadian way. We learned it from the aboriginals.

If you don't like it, get the hell out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:13 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 329 of 372 (774181)
12-14-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 3:15 PM


Re: Not in MY Courtroom!
Greatest I am writes:

Slave ownership and misogyny are not a right.


Then why are you promoting misogyny? Why not let women decide for themselves what they wear? If they say they are wearing something voluntarily, why not take their word for it? The women's expressed opinions don't figure into your policy at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:15 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17679
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 330 of 372 (774182)
12-14-2015 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Greatest I am
12-13-2015 3:16 PM


Greatest I am writes:

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”


First they wanted to ban the hijab and you did nothing because you're not a Muslim. Then they wanted to keep Muslims out entirely and you did nothing because you're not a Muslim....

Apparently, you missed the entire point of Niemoller's quote: If you let them persecute one group, eventually they'll come for you. We all have to stick together.

By rejecting your proposed discrimination against Muslims, we're protecting you. Ironic, ain't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Greatest I am, posted 12-13-2015 3:16 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

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